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  • Constitutional Convention

    What, no rotten tomatoes yet? OK maybe I haven't given you adequate opportunity to load your weapons. Perhaps when I am done you will have had time.

    It struck me a long while ago that we had somewhat short circuited the process of arriving at a good constitution to allow an effective code of laws and body politic. How, you ask?

    Well, most of the constitution was written or otherwise assembled by a single individual or small group with little or no awareness that the whole must be a simple, coherent document that could stand the test of time and trials. Surely they meant well. I am convinced that Trip and others did only what they felt was necessary to get the game on the road. That they did.

    What they did not do is allow a single process of thoughtful deliberation to formulate a single, coherent plan and then put that to the people for approval. Yes, amendments can and must come later, however we are experiencing the amendment of the month (or week). This is no way to run a nation.

    The original constitution would serve very well for a democratic game of 30 or 50 citizens. Most of the other demo games have that, or less. It does not serve well for a demo game of near 300. Here consensus is a time consuming thing to arrive at. Hence, we need a stong and durable constitution to both guide us in our dark hours and to free us to fulfil our destiny.

    Is it too late to create such a document? Who would be tasked to debate it, write it, and present it back to us? How would that process be undertaken? Do we need it?

    I open the topic to the citizens to consider (or to fire rotten vegetable matter at the author).
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

  • #2
    Im with you notyoueither. We need a document that can act as supreme law of the land without being changed every twenty-four hours. Something that outlines the specific duties of each person and grants us the protection against any wrong doers. Im with you in calling for a debate to provide a rock solid constitution.
    Campaigning for the PW Minister Vote for me ;-)
    "Save me Jeebuz" Homer Simpson

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    • #3
      If we make a new constitution, does this mean a revolution? Or would we just place it over the old constitution like a radical amenedment?

      If I were to remake the constitution, to fix our problem of 300 players we could add a senate made of senators elected from each town/province/whatever. All the citizens of Apolytonia would have to claim residency in one of our cities (edit: notifying the proper authorities when they wish to move), and then they could vote for the governor of that city, the senator(s) from that city, and then vote for national officials like ministers and the prez. It would be up to Senators to represent their city in turnchats, by making elected official run turnchats I believe they could be made more organized. And I dont know how many people usually atend a turnchat, but this would probably reduce the number of people also contributing to the coherentness of turn chats. Senators would also pass 'laws', or things that were laws or policies, but not quite amendments. The citizenry would still have to pass amendments and confirm justices, I think. Ministers should run with a vice-minister in their position, so if they can not make a turnchat (Ideally they both would make it), their suboordinate would be their to take over for them. The ministers jobs could also be performed by 3 ministers only - the duties of all our present ministers split amoong them. Just some initial ideas, Ill probably add more later.

      Kman
      "I bet Ikarus eats his own spunk..."
      - BLACKENED from America's Army: Operations
      Kramerman - Creator and Author of The Epic Tale of Navalon in the Civ III Stories Forum

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      • #4
        Wow, I hadn't thought of creating a Federal System of government, good idea Kman. That will neccesitate some looking into. I do agree however, that we need two seperate legal entities: a Constitution, and a Code of Laws. We need to establish a constitution first, and then a COL. There needs to be some hefty discussion on how this is to be done, though.
        2nd Minister of the Economy in the 1st Apolytonia Civ 3 Democracy Game.
        Founder and editor of the Berserker Bugle

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kramerman

          If I were to remake the constitution, to fix our problem of 300 players we could add a senate made of senators elected from each town/province/whatever. All the citizens of Apolytonia would have to claim residency in one of our cities (edit: notifying the proper authorities when they wish to move), and then they could vote for the governor of that city, the senator(s) from that city, and then vote for national officials like ministers and the prez.
          Yeah but think about how many elected officials we allready have. There is only three hundred people in Apolytonia. If we keep expanding and were to take each city and give it a governer and a senator then sooner or later Apolytonia would end up being a bunch of Senators and Governers. And that would make it like everyone is just a citizen because they will all end up with pretty much the same power. There going to be able to do what there allready doing. Debate a situation and take a poll on a corse of action. So then this original plan of action your insisting on would be a waste of time and be to time consuming for the public to pick a city to live in and then report it to the authorities. Just a little food for thought.
          Campaigning for the PW Minister Vote for me ;-)
          "Save me Jeebuz" Homer Simpson

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          • #6
            *GoodFella pauses from loading rotten tomatoes into catapult*

            Technically we may have around 300+ citizens, but how many of them have, are, and will be actually active? Watch the elections, realistcally I'm guessing there are mabee 100 to 150 at the most that are active (and don't get me wrong, of couirse I know that YOU, yes, YOU at your computer screen are very active).

            I do agree, that our government needs a major overhaul, and I have to say so far the Uber/Skywalker plan looks pretty good.

            *GoodFella resumes loading rotten tomatoes into catapult*
            If you are unable to read this you are illiterate.

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            • #7
              Fire!

              Yes GoodFella. However, that 300 is coming by 75 at a time at any given time. Remember that not all of us tune in everyday and anyday. At any rate, even 100 to 150 is far more than most demo games have attracted. Look at it this way, we are being victims of our own success

              As far as discussing concrete proposals here... OK. However, I am trying to point out that specific proposals about any given topic discussed in any one thread have lead to a confused and contradictory constitution as is. For instance, currently both the executive AND the court have authority to decide on the validity of polls. Was this the intention of the court amendment? I don't think so. However, it is a product of the way we have managed the evolution of the constitution to date.

              What I am asking is if we have enough experience to be able to appoint or elect a body to form a single, coherent document for the people to approve as a new constitution. You may call it the second republic if you wish. I believe France is currently on the sixth. I hope that fortune and wisdom would grant that two is sufficient.
              (\__/)
              (='.'=)
              (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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              • #8
                How about this. We appoint ten of our most knowledgeable and respected people and we give them a set period of time. And during this time they debate and come up with Apolytons perfect constitution. I say we have he Justices and Ninot of course and any other able body leaders to draw up our new constitution. Just a thought though.
                Campaigning for the PW Minister Vote for me ;-)
                "Save me Jeebuz" Homer Simpson

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                • #9
                  That's a start carpathia.

                  Actually, an even number would be good. It would mandate the assembly of a consensus within that group, for if it were dead-locked nothing would happen. I don't think anyone is in favour of no change at this point.
                  (\__/)
                  (='.'=)
                  (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                  • #10
                    France is on the 5th, but some are already tired of it !
                    Statistical anomaly.
                    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

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                    • #11
                      How about seven then; President, Vice president, two Justices, two ministers, and one appointed citizen. The public has to have a representative.
                      Campaigning for the PW Minister Vote for me ;-)
                      "Save me Jeebuz" Homer Simpson

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                      • #12
                        Throw the ideas around.

                        DAVOUT, still the fifth? I thought there was another after the war. Or was the pre war the fourth? Heh. I'm not the expert you would be. At any rate, they've done it a few times so there is precedent.
                        (\__/)
                        (='.'=)
                        (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DAVOUT
                          France is on the 5th, but some are already tired of it !
                          America is still on number 1!!!!!!!(not counting the Indians, Britain, and Articles of Confederation, of course)
                          "I bet Ikarus eats his own spunk..."
                          - BLACKENED from America's Army: Operations
                          Kramerman - Creator and Author of The Epic Tale of Navalon in the Civ III Stories Forum

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                          • #14
                            France is on Republic Nine From Outer Space, the previous eight failed...
                            If you are unable to read this you are illiterate.

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                            • #15
                              Republic Nine From Outer Space involves raising the recent dead, including Bela Lugosi reincarnated into a hooded wrestler...
                              If you are unable to read this you are illiterate.

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