CoL amendment - Announcing the turn chats 1 week prior to

[GodKing]

POLL DECLARED VOID DUE TO LACK OF DISCUSSION, WHICH IS OCCURING BELOW, SO PLEASE READ ON, AND POST YOUR OPINIONS


OK folks. There has been a lot of discussion regarding the number of turn chats, how often they are occurring, the amount of turns to be played, etc. etc. etc. This poll is for an official change to our code of laws. I am posting this without any pre-poll thread, figuring that it is simple enough to not need much, and that all can happen in this thread.

A turn chat or other method of playing the game will be announced at least 7 days prior to occurring in the appropriate thread. If either the president or vice president and 4 ministers agree, they can play the game with less notice, provided they all post in a new thread the rational behind this change and the time and date of the new chat.

What does this do for us? First, it allows people to plan ahead. Second, it will help avoid confusion among the people and ministers as to when the game is being played. Before anyone says that this is unlikely to occur, please note that it did happen recently. Third, it will cause a temporary slow down and prevent any unscheduled playing from occurring. Fourth, it allows people to voice concerns with a reasonable amount of time for them to be heard.

What this does NOT do is a) limit the number of times the game can be played. As long as it is posted, the game can be played every day of the week, or even multiple times on a single day. b) If something very important is occurring, and a majority of our elected officials (who we trust, else they wouldn't be elected) agree, then they have the ability to play the game without the notice providing they explain to the public why.

Voting choices:

Yes - this means that you like the idea and want to enter it into our code of laws

No - this means that you do NOT like the idea and that AS IT IS WRITEN; it should NOT be entered into our code of laws

Abstain - this is currently (I believe) being discussed in our court system. In this instance, it will have the following meaning: I don't care either way about this poll. Abstains will NOT be used as a no vote. If you do not want this to pass as written, then vote NO. If the number of abstains is equal to or exceeds the number of yes and no votes combined, then the poll will be deemed invalid, and is subject to immediate repolling. If the courts determine a different meaning for abstains in the mean time, this definition shall hold and take precedence for this poll only.


This poll will run 6 days. Please post and discuss below. Thanks.
GK

edit - typo
edit2 - voiding the poll and making this a discussion. (you can still vote if you like )

[jdd2007]

i like it. it makes things crystal clear

[Epistax]

A turn chat or other method of playing the game will be announced at least 7 days prior to occurring in the appropriate thread. If either the president or vice president and 4 ministers agree, they can play the game with less notice, provided they all post in a new thread the rational behind this change and the time and date of the new chat.

This almost gets there but not far enough. Remember, turn chats are for the ministers and P and VP. The quick polls we currently use during chats are always due to a lack of a minister, or the indecisiveness of one. The turnchats should not be based around when most of the public can show up, but when most of the ministers can. With that in mind, however, times should still be posted in advanced, but an entire week is too much.

If an interpretation behind provided they all post in a new thread the rational behind this change and the time and date of the new chat can be explained, however, I might be tempted to agree with the amendment.

[GodKing]

Epistax,

What that says is that for whatever reason, if either the prez or vp (those who play the game) and a significant majority of the ministers (4 is what I propose) wish to play the game, fine let them. For whatever reason. However, they must post saying that they are a) playing the game b) saying when they are playing so that if people can join they may do so and c) stating the rational of why they are violating the 7 day standard.

The rational behind me saying at least 5 public officials must make this is to provent abuse by a couple of individuals. I doubt that that would happen, but it may. And with this system in place, it would give the ministers the flexability they should have to do their job.

Yes, the turnchats should be based more upon when the prez/vp and ministers can make it. However that does not mean that the public should be ignored. This would allow all persons involved ample time to plan their schedules. Remember, many of our citizens are students currently on break. They have a very flexible schedule at this time. Once school starts up again, their schedules will become more fixed. They will need the ability to plan ahead. This will provide that scheduling. 7 days is only one week. Anything less than 7 wouldn't provide as good a scheduling benifit. It shouldn't be a problem to look only 1 week into the future and say - lets meet next thursday.....

[Epistax]

As long as it is not interpreted in a way to make the public rule over the turnchat times, I have no opposition. I will say, however, that all turnchats should have their times scheduled in the Next Turnchat thread ASAP, and there's no reason not to list more than just the next one (guess time).

If we are scheduled to have a turnchat on a friday, and many ministers report thursday is better, and we hold it then, and then it turns out friday is ok between the ministers and p/vp, there should be nothing stopping them from holding one that next day. It would be a nice courtesy to create a post so that no one (be it a citizen or a SMC) doesn't know about the 2nd turnchat.

I also wouldn't want that particular amendment to try to affect situations where a turnchat is interrupted and reconvened. That needs to be handled separately.

ps, remember I'm speaking as an idiot not a judge

[Spiffor]

I also think a whole week is too much in advance. Because problems will arise, many tunchats will be held at a different time than planned, and people will get confused (just remember the first turnchat, which was put 2 hours in advance on the big plan)

4 days seem much more appropriate to me. I hold my vote.

[UnOrthOdOx]

If we are scheduled to have a turnchat on a friday, and many ministers report thursday is better, and we hold it then, and then it turns out friday is ok between the ministers and p/vp, there should be nothing stopping them from holding one that next day. It would be a nice courtesy to create a post so that no one (be it a citizen or a SMC) doesn't know about the 2nd turnchat.
ps, remember I'm speaking as an idiot not a judge

I would be seriously against this. Two days in a row is unreasonable. You are saying the general public should not dictate the chats, fine, but they SHOULD dictate the course of the game as much as possible. Chats played too quickly deprive the public of all say. Polls must last 3 days, with chats played every other day, there is no time for the public. Continue and you will have nothing but ministers left here. It will become a spectator sport for the rest of us.

[Ninot]

this is completely unreasonable

as I stand now, i barely know what im going to be doing an hour from now, never mind a week from now.

a week's notice is something great for people who dont have jobs or social lives, but for those who do, like me its hard to plan this kind of thing in advance.

as for the quickly playd chats, let me remind you of something

the week we had those 2 chats in a row, there was massive unrest BECAUSE we weren't playing enough chats. people were complaining there was too little to do without actual game developments, and i saw complaints about too many ammendments trying to be passed cuz nothing else was happening.

you have to make up your minds.

the 2days in a row probably wont happen again for a while. that was 1: because of the war, 2: because of complaints

as for this week, it is planned every other day because we may not see very many turnchats in the upcomming week, so we need to get them done sooner or later. Would you rather go 8 solid days without a turnchat, rather than a few bunched togthere when there are no neccesary polls?

[Spiffor]

I'd say a turnchat every 2 days is a tad too fast, but a turnchat every 3 days would be just fine : we"'d have time to debate AND interesting things to speak about.

[Ninot]

Just so everyone knows, i urge everyone to vote NO!!!

oh, i agree completely that every other day is a bit fast. But, say given the current scenario, where from Friday to possibly mid-day Tuesday, I wont be arround, and Timeline can't exactly be counted upon... do you want to go that many days without a turnchat? whats wrong with everyother day then?

and how in tarnation are we supposed to plan a week in advance? give what happened Monday night to me. The evening before a turnchat, my PC fell apart. now what if it was a hardware problem, and it took me a week to fix it?
or, not being of the age where all my decisions are made by myself.. and where i have a job, how am i supposed to make a week-schedule and be confident it will stand intact, without delays?

unreasonable.

[Epistax]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


I would be seriously against this. Two days in a row is unreasonable. You are saying the general public should not dictate the chats, fine, but they SHOULD dictate the course of the game as much as possible. Chats played too quickly deprive the public of all say. Polls must last 3 days, with chats played every other day, there is no time for the public. Continue and you will have nothing but ministers left here. It will become a spectator sport for the rest of us.

It's very likely for any given turnchat to be of no consequence. Maybe only two turns or played, maybe it turns out no turns can be played, maybe our longterm goals go interrupted by anything new, so it would simply be a delay.

I do understand what you're getting at, but it's perfectly possible for a turnchat to be utterly uneventful

[Ninot]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


I would be seriously against this. Two days in a row is unreasonable. You are saying the general public should not dictate the chats, fine, but they SHOULD dictate the course of the game as much as possible. Chats played too quickly deprive the public of all say. Polls must last 3 days, with chats played every other day, there is no time for the public. Continue and you will have nothing but ministers left here. It will become a spectator sport for the rest of us.

IF this ammendment passes, sure you will probably have more than just ministers and President. But the President and Minister will have to have no social life outside of the game as a prerequisite.

oh, and the way Im currently scheduling the turnchats, polling problems is never an issue, because as i decide the schedule on the fly, i can ALWAYS adapt this schedule to any polls currently being run

IF this passes, and i decide i want a turnchat on Friday, and Monday next week.. and someone posts a 4 day poll heavily involving Mondays turnchat on Friday.. then what? we cancel Mondays chat? we ignore the poll?

it just doesnt work.

[Apocalypse]

I don't like it. This can be especially harmful with the school year starting again. Things can come up quickly. It would be wrong to make us wait many extras days automatically if we could just postpone it one day.

[GodKing]

But Ninot, it does work. Would that person of posted a 4-day poll, knowing that it would influence the next chat, if they could foresee that you were scheduling the next chat in 3 days? If so, shame on them. But with you scheduling the chats on the go, they wouldn't have known, therefore shame on you.

UberKruX wasn't at the chat when we took Washington. Why? Because he was confused. This occurred because of the hastily called chat the day before. Look - I am not trying to assign any blame or such. What I want to do is avoid this in the future. In the same chat, because of technical problems, Timeline essentially called it quits. I left, while many others stayed. OK, I am not a minister, so no big deal. But the ministers and others that did stay later for the Polly 4th birthday called for a continuation. Good. I personally am glad that they did. However, there was no notice that this occurred, and I among many others found out after the fact. I could have been there if I had known, and I probably would have been. It is fun to do the chats.

All that this proposed amendment is attempting to do is make it clear to provide notice of the chats, to avoid these situations. Everybody knows that emergencies happen (i.e. your computer). Nothing is proposed to limit you from canceling a chat in the case of an emergency. If a chat has to be rescheduled, that is easily accomplished. Just get the ministers to agree to when the next chat will be (if it is within the next week) and post it. That way all can know. There shouldn't be any problem finding 4 ministers, as there should be that many at the chats anyways. You see, as ministers we trust your judgment. That is why you were elected. If in the judgment of 5 elected persons it is good to play again in an hour; and again the next morning; and again in two days; and whenever; great. You are the ones that need to be at the chats. Also, you must realize that Timeline as VP can assist and do the chat if necessary. The rest of us shouldn't be left out or set aside to be a spectator only. We all should have a say in what is occurring. If we don't know what is going on, and when, how can we participate?

In terms of time, as I stated above, there can be multiple chats scheduled on the same day for all this proposal cares. There are no restrictions on that whatsoever. Nor should there be. Sometimes we might be able to do a chat every day, sometimes only once a week. Fine. Let the game itself dictate how fast it goes. This is only about the notice.

If as it sounds in your posts above that your job is the kind that your schedule changes every week. Fine. Post on Friday (or whenever you get your next schedule) the next 1, 2, 3 or whatever number of chats is to come in the next week. For example, you get your work schedule on Friday. There is a chat on Friday night. You ask in the chat what everybody is doing next week. You come up with 2 days that are good, next Tuesday and next Friday. At that point post the schedule for the next week. End of issue. You have the support of the ministers, who need to be there. But you could also ask a couple of days earlier, knowing that people will work with you and your schedule. You could set a couple of dates that may need to be changed later.

I personally juggle about 50-60 work hours a week; going to grad school at night (minimum of 6 credits a term, with no time off for summer); a house that I live in with only 2 cats, so I have all the yard work, remodeling of the kitchen, general maintenance, etc. none of which can be put off as I am trying to sell the place; a girlfriend/fiancé who wants to see me occasionally; and parents who are in essence handicapped in that they cannot do any yard work, so I have to travel 100 miles every week to mow their lawns, trim hedges, etc.; and I still find time to relax and enjoy coming on the forums, playing a computer game, or whatever. Not as much time as I would like, but still some time. All that I am asking for, and that I think a lot of other people would like, is some assistance in planning our schedules so that we can be here when some of the more interesting things occur; and to have this be in such a manor that we can count on it. Soon, many of our members will have their breaks end and will be going back to school. They will have schedules that will become a little more fixed, in class times and in probable times for work. I have also been told that there are some people that do something social outside of apolyton (how that can be I have no idea ). This will help them also. If enough people feel that the seven days is too much (or too little), please post such with recommendations for different times. If enough people say so, than it shouldn’t be a big thing to change this.

[Kuciwalker]

Heck yes!

*sigh*

Manually add +1 to YES.