Machiavelli Institute: Who should be our First Ally?

[Robber Baron]

Various ideas have been floating around in various threads, proposing various candidates for alliance.

Which AI civ(s) do you favor cultivating and/or setting up alliances with?

Assume, for the sake of discussion, that we've gone to war with America, sued for peace on favorable terms, and staked out a position to the north of our current position, centered on Washington (where we're forcefeeding the restive American populace bananas to grow trustworthy Apolytonians).

A lot depends, of course, on precisely how the war has gone, how costly it has been, what kinds of gains (if any) we have reaped. And on how and in what directions other civs have expanded.

Still, it's not too early to plan ahead, project scenarios....

[Spiffor]

It all depends where we want to expand to. If we want to conquer France after America, our allies will be different than if we go for Germany or Persia (but attacking Persia would be utterly stupid, since they'll have iron pretty soon)

Should we conquer France or Germany, I think our first ally should be Persia. It would also probably be our only ally, because of the price of alliances.
By securing an alliance with Persians, we get rid of the worst threat to us, and they might send a group of immortals, which will be a real nuisance to the enemy. If we ally with the Persians against the French, we should make a better road netork, so that their troops arrive before they make peace in our back.

[civman2000]

hmmm...i wouldn't say a group of immortals, but rather a horde! I agree though that Persia would be a very good ally to get.

[Harovan]

Geez, wimps!

I don't think Xerxes is a good ally. He tends to be backstabbing, worse than Liz. I have been sneak attacked by him 1 or 2 turns after an alliance with him expired. It's fallacious safety. Better let's not ally with anyone and be strong ourselves.

[Sheik]

Sir Ralph you are always thinking. However not allying with anyone however might put us at risk. The last thing we need is the Americans becoming buddies with everyone (Do the americans have our world map?). This has happened to me before. I never allied and then all of a sudden everyone declared war on me.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by Sheik
...not allying with anyone however might put us at risk. The last thing we need is the Americans becoming buddies with everyone (Do the americans have our world map?). This has happened to me before. I never allied and then all of a sudden everyone declared war on me.

Ah ha. Here's something definitely worth considering. What circumstances lead to pariah status (or, as the Civfanatics demogame labeled it, the "domino war" effect)? (This has happened to me, too, though I don't have enough experience to figure out why it happens, exactly.) When are AI civs more likely to isolate and gang up on a player?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Robber Baron
When are AI civs more likely to isolate and gang up on a player?

Certainly not in that early state. The AIs are lazy to open embassies so early. They seldom have spare money for this. Plus, they absolutely HATE prolongued early wars.

[Epistax]

If we ally with the Germans, we might find ourselves ripped to pieces by Aztecs. If we ally with Aztecs, they might get too powerful taking out Germany (and yes, persia eventually). I do think we could use an ally in the lower part of Abananaba.

I don't know how, but whenever I play, the Zulu are technologically advanced. Since we probably will ally with either the Zulu, Chinese, or Janapese, I'd rather the Zulu.

[Harovan]

People, please, quit fearing far away civs like the Aztecs or Persians. They are no threat, not at all. They need very long to get to Apolytonia, you can early estimate their war path and hit them from the side. And if they come in sight to our borders, they are already willing to make peace. At the latest!

[BigFurryMonster]

Let's ally with someone and then attack a city. The AI doesn't realize when the last defender of a city is slain, so we might grab the opportunity to get a few cities from it, although we leave most of the work to the AI ally.

[Epistax]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
People, please, quit fearing far away civs like the Aztecs or Persians. They are no threat, not at all. They need very long to get to Apolytonia, you can early estimate their war path and hit them from the side. And if they come in sight to our borders, they are already willing to make peace. At the latest!

Sir ralph, the ally we choose at 1000 BC will probably be our ally at 1000 AD. We aren't talking about long military routes, we are talking about the general expansion of all the empires (of which we are doing the slowest besides Babylon).

The Aztecs MIGHT get preempted by the Germans, and that would be pretty cool. If not, they will soon own much of the upper continent. The persians have no choice but to expand towards us, so they are a future threat as well.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Epistax
Sir ralph, the ally we choose at 1000 BC will probably be our ally at 1000 AD. We aren't talking about long military routes, we are talking about the general expansion of all the empires (of which we are doing the slowest besides Babylon).

This is impossible. What you are talking about, are MPPs, which are available only with Nationalism. In the ancient times, you can make only war alliances, which expire, when the particular war is over, at the latest, and they can be cancelled after 20 turns too.

[Epistax]

Sir ralph, you are then questioning the basis of this thread--- 'who shall we ally with' until the technology dictates.

By allying right now, we mean "Which AI civ(s) do you favor cultivating and/or setting up alliances with?" (thread start). Who do help for the purpose of hindering others? Favored in trading? As we favor people in trading, they will favor us more. Eventually they might get military alliances, trade embargos, and protection pacts, but at this point those terms are meaningless.

The way our current foreign affairs is, is called whoring. We could do this the whole time and hope no AI sees us as a threat because we're feeding everyone else.

[Papa Chubby]

As we are the weakest of the Civs on the continent, we should also take advantage of these military alliances. As a military we are quickly becoming a force to be reckoned with, but if we intend to capitalise on our armed forces we must move quickly, hence an early war with Americans. We can probably take them out ourselves and should try to do that in order to minimise probability of another Civ being dragged into the power Vacum created by early American exit. After this has been accomplished, assuming everything goes according to plan. We should be looking at the French, but with access to Iron they might be a little to big a bite for us to chew. Therefore we should try to enlist the Greek in our war against them. This way, hopefully spreading any swordsman that they have too thin to do any considerable damage.

[Robber Baron]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

In the ancient times, you can make only war alliances, which expire, when the particular war is over, at the latest, and they can be cancelled after 20 turns too.

Very true. And these I envision making and letting expire in a very flexible fashion. I'll be surprised if a given set of alliances or alliance patterns holds for a long duration. We will likely need to partner with short-term allies from time to time, but I'm guessing our geopolitical position in relation to the AI civs will be highly fluid. We will not be able to afford breaking treaties -- reputation is too important. But we will probably shift our diplomatic overtures as different powers grow stronger here, weaker there. Again, as I've said elsewhere, given our central position on the map we need to try to preserve a rough balance of power on either side of us.