Discussion: 2 Presidents. Prior to an Official Poll

[notyoueither]

There is controversy in the land.

Our poll for president has been called into question.

The candidates have agreed to a solution.

The VP apparent is polling to invalidate that solution.

What solution do the people of Apolyton desire?

This discussion will last 2 days. I will post an official poll if one is still required by that time. That official poll will be based on this discussion. That official poll will last 4 or 5 days (the minimum for an official poll). That official poll would be posted at about 1am MST July 18 (48 hours from now).

[Torkkeli]

Well I dont see a problem as at the time I'm writing this Ninot is in lead by one vote so Ninot is to come the president. In no way can the candidates themselves declare the president

But if the votes are equal when the poll is over then I think this is a job for the ministers to decide. (or maybe the court? Is there one yet?)

[disorganizer]

a repoll hase to take place if the poll is not conclusive.

and idea to prevent this in future is to skip the seperate vice-president election. if me make the runner-up in the presidential election the vice, we maybe have 4 candidates for this position in future. if we then have a tie between 2, we give only those 2 a second election phase.

[Timeline]

I agree.

Candidates can't decide who the President is, only the people can. So whoever wins the poll, becomes President. If it is a tie, then the Ministers should vote on it.

Simple as that. Go vote here.

[notyoueither]

BTW. I am thinking a show of hands type of poll might be the best for this 'official' poll. If it is needed. The voters might be limited to those who were citizens as of the commencement of the controversy (they posted in the join thread).

What do people think?

[Spiffor]

Actually, you can't hinder Trip and Ninot for collaborating : as anybody can have aides (remember : what is not in the constitution is implicitely allowed), you can have the official winner take his opponent as an "aide" and share power with him.

I normally favour the "power to the majority" thing, but the presidential election is so close that a mere DL can have made the difference. That's why I think Ninot's and Trip's decision is wise.

"show of hands". NYE, do you mean a thread which is not technically a poll, but a place where people say openly who they voted for ? In this case, it might actually be the best solution.

[Papa Chubby]

Yet they are not talking about one of them being as aide, they are talking about co-hosting the presidency, two presidents with equal authority and power. Another thing is that in our Code of laws, which by the way don´t state what is needed to win a position in the government, clearly states that the executive branch should be made out of a president and a vice-president. The emphasis should be on the singular. There is also no consensus, at least to the best of knowledge, on whether ministers and presidents are allowed to take aide´s,clerks or secretaries, whatever you want to call them.

NYE idea is probably the best way to do elections from now on, simply counting the votes (Papa shudders at the thought of Florida).

[civman2000]

I agree with Timeline. Of course if they want the can make the other their unofficial aide, but hten some constitutional questions come up if the aides do any of the jobs that belong to the president

[Epistax]

Presidential candidates can't decide who becomes president? Excuse me? If Ninot concedes, he therefore chooses Trip. If trip concedes, he therefore chooses Ninot. If they both concede, and there was a 3rd person with just one vote, then that person would become president. The candidates have the FINAL say as to which of them become president.

Now can two be president at the same time? I do admit that is very tacky, and copresident doesn't look good on a resume, but we have no provisions for this scenario. Due to the ambiguity of the election (non members voting) we are left with the possibility of either a tie, or either candidate being ahead, we can't tell.
These are the only options

1) Copresidency
2) Reelection (Same thing will happen)
3) Background checks on voters (teehee)
4) Someone concedes

Every method except #2 is quick and painless.
#3 is my non-PC idea of removing ballets cast by nonmembers, and taking the result at face value. If this is a tie, then we'll have to use another option.

[mtgillespie]

There is no evidence of wrongdoing. If you take the letter of the law, there is nothing which says you have to be a citizen of Apolytonia to vote

Therefore, accept the results of the poll. The duly appointed president will make election amendments his first first order of business (and boy do we need them!). We then have a month to get them right.

And no offence to Trip, who tried to get the ammendment through, but ran out of time. I think a rushed version would be as bad as no version (although i'm sure he'll disagree )

Lets accept this poll, realise we'll have an able leader whoever wins (thank the banana ) and move on. Anything else either leves us rudderless (or with 2 rudders, which could be worse), or is outside the constitution, which we MUST hold sacred, at ALL costs.

[jdjdjd]

Very difficult situation, but the fact is we need to let the poll run its course, if its a tie, then sharing may be fair. There is no provision in the constitution, so its not barred from happening. As for it being close but not a tie, then a winner is chosen, if he chooses to have the loser assist him, or aid him, fine. But, the VP still is the back up to the elected President, that is in the constitution and so long as this co-pres does not overstep bounds and do jobs, only Pres, VP or Minister can do, then let him do whatever he can. Just need to make sure that the loser does not violate the constitution by assisting.

[Kuciwalker]

The President can designate someone to do official business in his name. Everyone knows that this election was screwed up royally.

[Timeline]

Originally posted by Epistax
Presidential candidates can't decide who becomes president? Excuse me? If Ninot concedes, he therefore chooses Trip. If trip concedes, he therefore chooses Ninot. If they both concede, and there was a 3rd person with just one vote, then that person would become president. The candidates have the FINAL say as to which of them become president.

True, candidates can decide the fate of their other candidates, but they cannot directly control if THEY win or not.

If someone really wants to win, they cannot MAKE themselves win. The people, with their votes, make the winner.

[Aggie]

I think we need to do one of two things.
1) Let trip and ninot be copresidents
2) Count only the votes that were from citizens, Mark say this can and will be done if we want it to. Perhaps this is a solution. Yes the consitution doesn't explicitly say you must be citizen to vote, but this is part of common law(and common sense) and doesn't have to be stated.

Either solution is acceptable to me, however just using the results is NOT, since it will mean that noncitizens are dictating our president and that is the most undemocratic method of all.
Aggie

[GodKing]

I agree with Timeline on this issue.

We should not have 2 presidents. If the one who does win would like the assistance of the other, they may do so provided a) they don't interfear with the rights of others (ie the VP) and b) the one person who did win is the one in charge. They have the responsibility of making sure that what is supposed to happen does, and the blaim if it doesn't. They cannot say "well my aid did that, so go yell at him....". Sorry, doesn't work that way.

In case of a tie, the judiciary should decide. With this being the case and without us having any judges yet, I say that Trip is still president UNTIL he appoints and has ONE justice confirmed. That justice will have to review the constitutionality of the situation, contact Mark G for the voting info, and make the decision. Once the decision is made, then the next president will be sworn in.