Announcement

**Epistax** · July 6, 2002, 18:01

Re: Debate: What do we want?

Do we (the citizens not the ministers) want to have a poll every time a unit has to make a move? I don´t

heh I think it would be funny if each person could represent a single unit and be entirely encharge of them, given orders. of course we're not ready for that yet. Try back in 30 years.

Do we want a poll every time a city builds a unit and we have to decide what to build next? I don´t...

No, but there needs to be a discussion between ministers because this effects everything.

Do we want a poll every time we have to decide if we should declare war against another nation? YES...

duh

Do we want a poll every time a minor decision has to be made? I don´t...

hmm lets take a vote on that.

Do we want a poll every time a major decision has to be made? Ofcourse...

What are elected officials for then?

What would happen if we said yes to all my questions?
Then our little game would not be finished until christmas...2010...

Well I'm expecting this game to be done 2004 right now. Perhaps you had envisioned something else.

What do we want?

banana flavored beer

**Jon Shafer** · July 6, 2002, 18:03

Re: Debate: What do we want?

Originally posted by Fatwreck
Do we (the citizens not the ministers) want to have a poll every time a unit has to make a move? I don´t

Do we want a poll every time a city builds a unit and we have to decide what to build next? I don´t...

Do we want a poll every time a minor decision has to be made? I don´t...

I think at some point in a couple months or so, our community will be in a huge shock. Needless to say, choosing every indivudual move by polls, or even turnchat debate will destroy the game... at some point it will be necassary for ministers to act more independently, even when the "this is a democracy, we all decide" people complain. The Civ 2 Demo Game is done when the ministers send orders to the President, he plays by himself for three or four turns, then reports on it. If we tried to do that here, every person in government would get impeached.

**Fatwreck** · July 6, 2002, 18:21

Re: Re: Debate: What do we want?

Originally posted by Epistax

heh I think it would be funny if each person could represent a single unit and be entirely encharge of them, given orders. of course we're not ready for that yet. Try back in 30 years.

No, but there needs to be a discussion between ministers because this effects everything.

duh

hmm lets take a vote on that.

What are elected officials for then?

Well I'm expecting this game to be done 2004 right now. Perhaps you had envisioned something else.

banana flavored beer

I think it´s obvious that you did´nt see my irony in most of those questions I made, or do you really think that I was serious when asking if we should have a poll when we were to declare war upon another nation...if you thought so you must be really naiv...

The message in my post was not in the questions... if you did not see that plz re-read it, it seems like you only read the questions...

Originally posted by Trip
I think at some point in a couple months or so, our community will be in a huge shock. Needless to say, choosing every indivudual move by polls, or even turnchat debate will destroy the game... at some point it will be necassary for ministers to act more independently, even when the "this is a democracy, we all decide" people complain.

This is my exact point...but IF the ministers are to act more indepentantly there is another HUGE reason why they MUST at all cost be present at the turnchats don´t you think?

**Epistax** · July 6, 2002, 18:27

i know sarcasm, you don't know reverse sarcasm, or do you? or do you not? (continues like this for 70 more sentences)

Anyway, I believe in time ministers will basically be in control of everything because there will be too much for people to vote on. Your post wasn't needed. Neither is this one, but it's here none the less.

**Jon Shafer** · July 6, 2002, 18:28

Re: Re: Re: Debate: What do we want?

Originally posted by Fatwreck
This is my exact point...but IF the ministers are to act more indepentantly there is another HUGE reason why they MUST at all cost be present at the turnchats don´t you think?

Yes, but that won't happen. Things will break down once things get more complicated, I fear.

**Fatwreck** · July 6, 2002, 18:43

Originally posted by Epistax

Anyway, I believe in time ministers will basically be in control of everything because there will be too much for people to vote on. Your post wasn't needed. Neither is this one, but it's here none the less.

If I understand you right you also want the ministers to act more independantly... and that is why my post is important because it seems that the ministers themselves seem not to want that... if they wanted that they would attend every turnchat and if for some reason they can´t then they should have a stand-in otherwise the president does´nt "know" what do do and the turnchat ends after just playing a few turns...

Originally posted by Trip
Yes, but that won't happen. Things will break down once things get more complicated, I fear.

Trip, always the optimist... seriously do you think that, I´ve been thinking about that to: Is civ3 to complex for a demogame or is some other reason or do you just have a hunch?

**Jon Shafer** · July 6, 2002, 19:08

Thanks.

I just think that the civilian body here is being conditioned to one thing, which will be impossible to impliment later on. And I feel that that will cause problems when people do realize that we can't do what we're doing now forever. That's it, I'm not predicting armageddon.

**Duddha** · July 6, 2002, 19:24

What do we want?

WAR!

**Timeline** · July 6, 2002, 19:39

War...HUH!

Good God man!

What is it good for?!

**Apocalypse** · July 6, 2002, 19:45

Family Law used that as their theme song. That was such a funny show. Almost as funny as Judging Amy.

**JSeeds** · July 6, 2002, 23:27

ab-solutely NOTHING!

(sorry, I couldn't help myself)

**IceElement** · July 7, 2002, 00:53

As Trip said, the game is going to become ever more complex and... dare I say it... tedious if decisions are having to be constantly discussed. At the moment, we have a very pure form of democracy *hmmmm* where all decisions are voted on or are at least discussed....
But I think more independancy for the ministers is needed... they were voted to make decisions, and not just to move workers around.

Ice

Edit- Typo

**IceElement** · July 7, 2002, 00:58

Although I got involved to discuss things, I do wanna see some progress... at the moment... conversation outweighs action, and this aint good IMO.

**MrWhereItsAt** · July 7, 2002, 07:19

It is nice that we all get involved in every individual move in the early game, and that the Ministers (particularly Uber and Ninot) seem to have the time to make such detailed plans. However, this ain't gunna happen for very long. I predict the end of this once we have America, or France, or whatever - our first set of conquests. We will have far too many units.

The trick will be making the transition from individual move discussion to discussion about orders for groups of units. Say, send those ships exploring East - and then it should be at the Minister's/Presidents discretion how best to do this, unless someone volunteers a plan. We would still need detailed planning for, say, a first strike, but only in these tricky circumsatances.

Once the SMC and Prez start to get REALLY busy, then it must happen. I ask that everyone consider this, think about how they would deal with it if they were the Ministers whose jobs suddenly became impossible, and now support this change to more general unit move discussions.

I know - I have just finished a marathon 8 hours of play as President of the Civ2 game. Yep, 8 hours. The gameplay was only about 3, and looking at all the discussion and preparation was 5 hours - just imagine how long it would take someone in a more complex game like Civ3 if they had move at a time orders.

Announcement

Debate: What do we want?

Debate: What do we want?

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment