Ethics

[eewolf]

i have some questions for the citizens of apolytonia.

what is your goal(s)? to win? to win at any cost? you can each do that on your own. should you have larger goals in a game of this size? what about ethical guidelines? you have a constitution but it is long on structure and short on depth of character.

if you achieve a "game win" with no higher standards, what have you achieved?

i bring these to your attention before your first war because it will be too late afterward.

just a couple examples:

slavery: who decided you should use captured workers as slaves? did you vote on it? if your empire is built on the backs of slaves, what does that say for your character as a people?

pop rushing: i have seen no talk of this so perhaps this has been banned. if not, why not? a democracy that votes for torture and slavery must have a serious class structure. does apolytonia?

city razing: should cities ever be razed? should there be a city size limit here? who decides?

civilian deaths: should bombardment of cities be allowed at all? this is a moral question. should there be limits for bombardment units? military unit and strategic resources only? is it ok to pillage and thus starve populations?

reputation: should your keep your word? even if it means a lost opportunity? if you are always opportunistic, what does being an apolytonian mean?

so, is winning everything? shouldn't you be striving for something larger here?

if these things have been addressed then my apologies and please point me to the relevent documents.

thank you for your time.

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
Sophocles

[Spiffor]

Currently, no moral concern has been adressed, or only to be ridiculed (we laughed about the idea of an environment minister )
Our concern, for the time being, is not to win at all costs. It's to get out of this jungle at all costs. As long as our very survival is jeopardized by our starting position, morals will not be a concern. When we become a stable power (in a long time), we'll probably make ethical choices.

[eewolf]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Currently, no moral concern has been adressed, or only to be ridiculed (we laughed about the idea of an environment minister )
Our concern, for the time being, is not to win at all costs. It's to get out of this jungle at all costs. As long as our very survival is jeopardized by our starting position, morals will not be a concern. When we become a stable power (in a long time), we'll probably make ethical choices.

so, apolyton puts survival above its moral code? slavery is ok until you are out of the jungle? did you check with the slaves on that one? what makes you think that those prospering by slavery will want to give it up later? ethics comes with a price. and you cannot buy in later. do you speak for apolytonia when you say "morals will not be a concern?"

it seems to me that you would like ethics to be convenient. but, they are not. instead, they are a challenge. is that not what this is about?

i will leave you again with the same quote:

"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud."
Sophocles

[Spiffor]

Your questions aren't easy to answer, and I fear very few Apolytonians will answer to you.
I'm pretty sure I speak for a huge majority of Apolytonians when I say moral is currently not a concern. In fact, you're the first one to even raise the question.

I don't know if we'll have moral concerns in the future, once we'll be a stable power. But I'm almost sure we won't adress moral at all until then. Only once we'll be a stable power, we'll have the opportunity to discuss morals. Whether we'll take it or not, I can't say.


(BTW, were you once concerned about your very survival in real life ? In these times, instinct takes over civilization, and nothing matters more than survival itself)

edit : typo

[Switch]

Originally posted by Spiffor
"BTW, were you once concerned about your very survival in real life ? In these times, instinct takes over civilization, and nothing matters more than survival itself)

It depends on who you ask. Regarding most people, you'd most probably be right. However, regarding those of us who follow a major religion, namely Christianity or similarly ethical religions, and aren't just a part of it by name but actually a part of it by their actions, then the opposite would be true: self sacrifice for the good of anyone else. IE, put yourself last.

This kind of goes to the question: would you jump in front of a bullet aimed at someone else?

[UnOrthOdOx]

what makes you think that those prospering by slavery will want to give it up later? ethics comes with a price. and you cannot buy in later.

Alot of what you say is true. In some sense. I do not speak for all of Apolytania, only for myself. I really expect that what will happen here will likely follow the history of the world.

Can you name me a civilization that at some time did not use a form of slavery? If you want to get right down to it, isn't the very starting government imposed by the game unethical? The game is meant to simulate our journey from stone age barbarians to modern day "enlightened" people. I say let it be played as so.

It is nice to say how things could be done. And in a ideal situation that may be so. You are right saying that ethics come at a price. At what point does that price become too high? Is it ethical to ever even declare a war? You ask if bombardment of cities should be allowed. Even taking a city, razed or not, results in the lost lives of the innocent. Shall we even be allowed to go to war? On what grounds?

I CAN tell you what we ARE here for, however. We are here to PLAY the GAME. We are here to HAVE FUN. If there are those who find enjoyment in moral and ethical debates, they will occur. Win or lose, our goal here is to have fun, as a group. To come together, as a group. And to learn, have fun, and play, as a group.

[Duddha]

so, apolyton puts survival above its moral code? slavery is ok until you are out of the jungle? did you check with the slaves on that one? what makes you think that those prospering by slavery will want to give it up later? ethics comes with a price. and you cannot buy in later. do you speak for apolytonia when you say "morals will not be a concern?"

He does speak for us in saying that morals are not a concern not only because our suvival is at stake but also because moral corruption has no weight in the game. It does not matter if we take slaves, the computer doesn't care. The computer also doesn't care if we're nice. It will kill us all the same and if we are destroyed I don't think any of us will be satisfied that we died with honor. We want to win.

[eewolf]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Your questions aren't easy to answer, and I fear very few Apolytonians will answer to you.
I'm pretty sure I speak for a huge majority of Apolytonians when I say moral is currently not a concern. In fact, you're the first one to even raise the question.

I don't know if we'll have moral concerns in the future, once we'll be a stable power. But I'm almost sure we won't adress moral at all until then. Only once we'll be a stable power, we'll have the opportunity to discuss morals. Whether we'll take it or not, I can't say.

you cannot address the moral issues later. it does not matter if it is inconvenient now. if you build your civilization on slavery, torture, larceny, etc., you will always be tainted. i didn't mean to inconvenience the powers that be with such trivia, i just wondered if this was or could be more than a game. seems like it should be.

Originally posted by Spiffor
"BTW, were you once concerned about your very survival in real life ? In these times, instinct takes over civilization, and nothing matters more than survival itself)

i have been in situations where my life was in jeopardy. i have not had to make ethical decisions for my survival, though. i like to believe that i could rise above pure survival if the situation arose, as many have over the ages. and you are wrong about instinct. that is an overused tool, an excuse for the masses. critcal thought and ethics combined are more powerful than instinct. it is the ability to see and act beyond instinct that raises us above the natural darwinian world.

to say "nothing matters more than survival itself" is to lose before taking your first step. it will become the continuous battlecry of the strong persecuting the weak.

my examples stand. if apolytonia uses slavery, torture, and kills civilians for territory, than apolytonia is nothing and never will be, even in "victory". but if apolytonia has standards and lives (and dies) by them, then you have glory, even if you do not survive.

why strive for less?

[Panag]

hi ,

its almost impossible to use and keep "ethics" , the AI does not use them , ...... so why should we start to do so , .........

if the AI would take them in account , yes , but here its not the case , ....

have a nice day

[eewolf]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx


Can you name me a civilization that at some time did not use a form of slavery?

what does that matter? if this "democracy game" is an exercise in reliving history, it means little. if, however, it is an exercise in striving for goals from what history has taught, then maybe it serves a higher goal. and i believe would be more fun in the long run.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
If you want to get right down to it, isn't the very starting government imposed by the game unethical?

of course. and you have a strange duality going on with your democratic form of decision making and your current form of government in the game. but who is driving?

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx The game is meant to simulate our journey from stone age barbarians to modern day "enlightened" people. I say let it be played as so.

the game by firaxis was designed with that in mind (and more, maybe). but you aren't playing that game. that game is a minor part of what is happening here.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
It is nice to say how things could be done. And in a ideal situation that may be so.

isn't that what you have created here. an ideal situation where a large group of players can all contribute to the whole. why are you so quick to give in to the easiest road?

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx You are right saying that ethics come at a price. At what point does that price become too high?

ah, people have been asking that since before history. and answering, too. some say that no price is too high. some say there are limits. i was just wondering why apolytonia doesn't ask or answer it.

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Is it ethical to ever even declare a war? You ask if bombardment of cities should be allowed. Even taking a city, razed or not, results in the lost lives of the innocent. Shall we even be allowed to go to war? On what grounds?

these are wonderful questions that should be asked and answered in your democracy game. but by what standard are the answers given?

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I CAN tell you what we ARE here for, however. We are here to PLAY the GAME. We are here to HAVE FUN. If there are those who find enjoyment in moral and ethical debates, they will occur. Win or lose, our goal here is to have fun, as a group. To come together, as a group. And to learn, have fun, and play, as a group.

great! i do not see where standards will lessen the fun or dillute the game. in fact, it will make it more challenging. in fact, i congratulate everyone participating in the game.

[UnOrthOdOx]

In all honesty, I hope you stick around for quite some time, I enjoy debates. All debates. I must leave work now, however, and my home computer is down at the moment. I will return tomorrow to continue this, however, and hopefully more in the future. Untill then.

[Duddha]

Well, if we want to role play about this then our moral corruption is all the fault of Tyrant Trip. Damn this despotism! How much longer until Republic?

[eewolf]

Originally posted by panag
hi ,

its almost impossible to use and keep "ethics" , the AI does not use them , ...... so why should we start to do so , .........

if the AI would take them in account , yes , but here its not the case , ....

have a nice day

spoken like a true despot. is that your standard? i am only as evil as the next guy. not much of a standard.

try this: i do not want to have standards because that would make things more difficult. doesn't really rally the troops, does it?

you have the minds of dozens of living, breathing, thinking people behind you. all i am saying is that maybe you should have a code beyond, let's beat those subroutines.

[Inverse Icarus]

i'm very pro pop rushing.

[Panag]

Originally posted by eewolf


spoken like a true despot. is that your standard? i am only as evil as the next guy. not much of a standard.

try this: i do not want to have standards because that would make things more difficult. doesn't really rally the troops, does it?

you have the minds of dozens of living, breathing, thinking people behind you. all i am saying is that maybe you should have a code beyond, let's beat those subroutines.

hi ,

, we are talking about the game , .... right , ....

the day the comp is able to count it in , yes , ....
but since its not in , no , not on all point , but on most ; NO

have a nice day