Science Advisor Campaign Thread

[Inverse Icarus]

hrmph. courthouses before swordsmen?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Captain
Candidates Tassadar and Civman2000:

What are your positions on scientific spending in the early game?

Should we allocate a large % of funds towards research, or towards treasury build-up in order to purchase such technologies from rivals? Or should we demand technologies as tribute from weak neighbours?

My stance on this would be to increase science spending so that we are still making gold per turn, but just one more notch to the right would start taking away gold. However, if might be benificial in some situations to actually turn it right a notch in order to complete some technologies.

However, a balance MUST be made between the treasury and the science buget. As much as I want the science buget to be high, I would be willing to support a cut in order to maintain a good treasury as maintaining a scientific lead over other civilizations is important however having money to buy science, maps, alliances is also important.

But like I said before, I would prefer high science spending.

Once we have achieved a strong infrastructure (with libraries and universities), what will be your new position on the allocation of funds for science?

Oh, this would only be reason to spend MORE on science. Now that we are producing MORE beakers, and because we have university I'm assuming were now in the middle ages, it would be much more important to stay ahead of the competition.

You can fall behind in ancient and maybe even middle, but come industrial age and you really have to keep up.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by UberKruX
hrmph. courthouses before swordsmen?

Yes, courthouses before swordsmen. Swordsmen are an offensive military unit that should only be built if we are going for war. So if war were to happen, courthouses *could* be put on hold but in my opinion, corruption is something we should worry about a little more.

Offensive military units should be built later in the game, once we establish an empire and begin defending it well. However again, it's all subject to change depending on various situations.

[Kuciwalker]

Your opinions are actually not that important, unlike, say, those of the Foreign, Military, Trade, Interior etc. Ministers, as science is fairly clear-cut: you either want to research this or research that, which is easy to determine solely through polling, whereas the others *generally* poll on broader policy issues.

[civman2000]

science rate as high as possible while still being efficient (not being able to get the same science at a lower rate), at least early on. The flaws in Tassadar's plan are the other civs. They almost always (in my experience) get mysticism before you. No plans should be too detailed because so much depends on our starting techs and the other civs.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by civman2000
science rate as high as possible while still being efficient (not being able to get the same science at a lower rate), at least early on.

Yes, at least we agree on that.

The flaws in Tassadar's plan are the other civs. They almost always (in my experience) get mysticism before you.

Although in my experience this does not happen as often....It is almost a certanty that we are going to have to trade for some techs as the AI will have them, and we will not especially because of the higher difficulty level. So, this simply opens up a door for possible trade. And if it doesn't happen....Great

No plans should be too detailed because so much depends on our starting techs and the other civs.

If I may quote from my own plan:

This plan may change due to the polls being the way they are.

That's basically saying that my plan will probably change because were a different Civ, or we've traded for techs, or 'unforseen circumstances', etc...

[civman2000]

Just debated for about an hour over many topics, though mainly between me and tassadar over science. Other topics include what civ to choose and some politics (though i edited it to remove the unimportant stuff, including some of the political alliance formations (in sum ninot and timeline allied themselves, though didn't join, the AAACC3/imperialist party)):

22:50:44 [Tassadar5000] civman
22:50:48 [civman2000] hi
22:50:49 [Timeline] your compition is here.....tassadar, do i smell a debate coming on?
22:51:26 [civman2000] lol, i saw a few demo gamers here and figured there was an unofficial mini-demo-chat
22:51:30 [Ninot] ooh, a debate? that could be interesting
22:52:20 [civman2000] so what should we debate about
22:52:31 [Dragoon_6th] i like debates only when i win
22:52:45 [civman2000] me too...i'm a relentless debater
22:53:10 [civman2000] i argue until i win or i realize that i thought the other side was saying something else...
22:53:29 [civman2000] but i never cave in and agree with what i originally disagreed about
22:54:02 [civman2000] usually i win because the other side doenst care enough to keep arguing
22:54:19 [Timeline] civman, why do you think you should get my vote in the election?
22:55:51 [civman2000] vote for me and vote for deatiled choices!
22:56:11 [Tassadar5000] Can you back that arguement up?
22:56:31 [civman2000] how am i supposed to do that?
22:56:37 [Ninot] civman, your science?
22:56:42 [Tassadar5000] I dunno, what do you mean by "detailed choices"
22:56:51 [civman2000] that's what i promise, it's not like i have to prove it!
22:57:18 [Ninot] i have a question for the candidates!
22:57:24 [civman2000] let me find a link...i ran for sci advisor in the civ2 game in june, i'll find my more detailed promises
22:57:26 [Tassadar5000] ask
22:59:26 [civman2000] http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=1
22:59:29 [Tassadar5000] I'm not sure timeline. i agree with Trip a lot, but I dont agree with Expansion and Military
22:59:35 [civman2000] my promises in the civ2 game
22:59:49 [Timeline] LOL CIVMAN< YOU LOST?!
23:00:28 [civman2000] i was the only person who got close to deeating an incumbent that month though
23:00:37 [Ninot] ok.. i am in the anti-party party.. so im gonna do a write in vote.. and put in "Guest"
23:01:04 [civman2000] ixnay put about 5 hours into his very last report, even though his earlier ones werent too great
23:03:02 [Tassadar5000] Civ, you haven't given any good reasons on why people should vote for you (er....i'm hungry right now, so i might not make sense. its a geek thing)
23:03:12 [Ninot] hey Civman2000, i gota two part question
23:03:32 [Ninot] its slightly selfish.. actually, only one part
23:03:55 [Ninot] does your party support either of the candidates in the foreign minister race?
23:05:19 [Tassadar5000] Any questions for me?
23:05:26 [civman2000] no official party position, but iu support ninot
23:05:26 [Timeline] Trip, does the imperialist party support anyone in the city planning or foriegn minister race?
23:05:30 [Ninot] does your party support either of the candidates in the foreign ministry race?
23:05:34 [civman2000] the other gy's too agressive
23:06:07 [Ninot] well, i can't reveal my science advisor vote yet, cuz your both here.. and i cant say ill vote for both of ya with both of ya here, rofl
23:06:26 [Timeline] city planner: Myself, Sir Ralph, and some other guys thats a settler
23:07:05 [Tassadar5000] Anyway....Civman, why do you believe you'd be better at the job than I am (beware, lag is happening with me again.)
23:07:07 [Ninot] Turambar is my oponent Trip
23:07:12 [Timeline] so trip, I would be very interest in your party leanings
23:07:33 [Trip] I have my own party, is that leaning?
23:08:41 [Ninot] see, i support the Imperialists, but i dont wanna join anything till the game starts.. sorry
23:08:41 [civman2000] tassadar: look at that link:http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...0&pagenumber=1
23:09:08 [Timeline] yea i am same as ninot, i support the imperialists.....
23:09:10 [civman2000] my promises before, pretty much the same now. Look in the debate thread for more
23:09:38 [Trip] it appears as though the election will be held tomorrow evening
23:09:40 [Timeline] by electing me, you would be electing someone who will help and support your agenda...timeline, just what the doc ordered
23:10:03 [Tassadar5000] Um, you lost that Civman. And, you believe your better than me because you'll always have three techs?
23:10:07 [Ninot] yeah Civman.. but i prefer to type imperialists than AAACC3.. imperial is a natural thing for me to type
23:10:32 [civman2000] tassadar, that's just specifics
23:10:47 [Ninot] well, right now, it looks like your views are pretty much along the same lines as mine as concerning how we should play the game
23:10:55 [Ninot] that and i like many of your candidates
23:10:59 [civman2000] the basic idea is that i always make sure the prez knows exactly what tto do, and guide the people in choosing the best techs
23:11:33 [civman2000] in my experience in the civ2 game, the candidates rarely differ very much in their ideas for the game
23:11:48 [Tassadar5000] I've already said that (in many more words) in the Science Advisor thread. So again, why do you think youd be better?
23:11:48 [Timeline] i will support the imperialists because in my task of city planning, i will ensure our cities are ready to make you look like an effective, competant leader
23:12:28 [Timeline] we will be prepared for battle if neseccary and science will be moved along to make us an advanced nation
23:12:33 [Ninot] but, in civ3, i will bet there might be folk who take over who abhore war enough to just sit back and gain culture..
23:12:51 [civman2000] In all my experience playing civ, science has always been my top priority
23:13:03 [Trip] Those who support me me in the first administration will be pleasantly rewarded when my coup overthrows the government and installs a dictatorship
23:13:15 [Timeline] science would also be my top priority.......
23:13:19 [civman2000] as a result, i have gained much experitse in scientific excellence!
23:13:44 [Timeline] and tassadar, if i am elected city planner, i will boost our commerce output to the maxim possible, same for you civman
23:14:08 [Tassadar5000] As I think I have already proven, I like to sit down and really think about things including science. I've never lost a game due to science. Timeline, thats a good thing
23:14:19 [civman2000] science can aid our military and keep it competitive, but after the early game and except during wartime it should focus on culture/wonders
23:15:10 [civman2000] nor have i. I almost always make keeping my tech lead the top priority
23:15:12 [Tassadar5000] Civ: Yes I agree, In the very beginning focusing on Defense is prudent, and then culture and science, with offense coming last
23:16:07 [civman2000] oonce i have a comfortable lead of 2-3, i will sell them for luxuries/treaties and then sell to everyone else, but I still try to keep the lead at almost all costs
23:16:35 [Ninot] well, ok.. a tech like radio, would you be willing to sell that pretty quickly?
23:16:45 [Timeline] i am sure ninot knows that if he sells techs, you must sell them to every civ cause they trade next turn?
23:17:07 [Trip] what if we don't get a tech lead ever
23:17:17 [civman2000] sure! Definitely, with no hesitation unless it will advnace the other civs an era
23:17:29 [Trip] if we're going to be playing on a harder difficulty level, ala Diety, chances are that we may never get ahead
23:17:33 [Tassadar5000] You sell when you have a lead of 2-3? That's risky, especially consdering that the civilizations trade with each other every turn. I try to wait until a significant lead, or until an emergency arises
23:17:57 [civman2000] hmmm...i usually play on regent, sometimes on manoarch
23:17:59 [Timeline] we wont be playing on diety
23:17:59 [Trip] Tass, the AI usually catches up anyways
23:17:59 [Ninot] ack.. dont tell me that
23:18:13 [Trip] unless you're surrounded by isolated civs, then I suggest selling them
23:18:23 [Ninot] anyways.. yeah, i know about the tech trading, i would be sure to get as much as possible for everything i trade
23:18:28 [civman2000] tassadar: i dont sell immediately. I sell if i need money or when my lux trades/RoPs, etc, expoire
23:18:28 [Trip] oterwise, we won't get anything for them, and the AI will quickly catch up anyways
23:18:44 [Tassadar5000] Trip: The AI will catch up to you no matter what. But trading the techs only makes them come faster. Oh ok Civman, I misunderstood.
23:18:58 [Timeline] trip, question: (if you dont answer i am voting for the settler: how much do you value early exploration?
23:19:02 [Trip] yes, but you can at least get something out of it
23:19:27 [Trip] exploration of the immediate area where you plan to build cities is important
23:19:37 [civman2000] i think exploration should be very high priority, that's why i prefer expansionist
23:19:40 [Tassadar5000] Sometimes selling a tech to a civ can suddenly give them a small boost in research. Ive seen it happen.
23:19:47 [Timeline] ok, what about getting contact with as many other civs as [possible?
23:19:57 [Trip] but until you establish a firm infrastructure, anything other than that (aside from sending out a lone warrior to do his will) is best to wait for
23:20:10 [Trip] contact is always good
23:20:19 [Trip] trading techs early is important
23:20:34 [civman2000] but if we discover a new continent how important is it to contact everyone
23:20:35 [Trip] send out a lone warrior or two to search for civs
23:20:36 [Tassadar5000] Early, yes. But when you start getting industrial, etc...I would disagree.
23:20:46 [Timeline] contact is vital for wonders like the great library, which i am sure civman and tassadar are very interested in
23:20:47 [Trip] depends on what part of the game you mean
23:20:51 [civman2000] it can be very expensive or time consuming
23:21:34 [Timeline] yes but it [Great Library] only benefits you from civs you have discovered
23:21:36 [Trip] we COULD go straight to literacy
23:21:38 [civman2000] but the problem is it can only last for a few techs before becoming obselete...
23:21:44 [Trip] and start building the pyramids in one city from the get-go
23:21:51 [Timeline] so, contact with many civs is important for this wonder
23:22:01 [Trip] it becomes obsolete with what? electricity? education?
23:22:05 [civman2000] Trip: I usually do (after geting the military essentials), and just trade/buy the rest
23:22:07 [Tassadar5000] But during the time it gives you those techs...
23:22:17 [civman2000] education
23:22:33 [Trip] I think it was electricity in 2, that's what I'm thinking of
23:22:33 [Ninot] well if we get one city built to pump out settlers, and have the capitol building the pyramids, that could work
23:22:51 [Tassadar5000] But sometimes if your lucky, the computer decides to research all techs but education until it has to. But that hardly ever happens to me
23:23:02 [Trip] I think if we want any chance at the GL, we'll have to go straight for literacy, and start building the Pyramids VERY early
23:23:29 [Tassadar5000] What civ are we being again? Egypt?
23:23:39 [Trip] most likely
23:23:40 [Timeline] why do you value paramids so highly, its just part of your militaristic play style isnt it?
23:23:41 [civman2000] trip: well i say it's worth it!
23:23:41 [Ninot] probably
23:23:43 [Trip] that or babylon
23:24:01 [civman2000] pyramids is to just build up shields
23:24:05 [Ninot] well, i value the pyramids because if we get literacy before they are finnished, its an easy switch to GL
23:24:12 [Timeline] gotta go vote babylon
23:24:28 [Ninot] i voted Rome!
23:24:29 [Tassadar5000] TImeline! Vote egypt, not babylon!
23:24:37 [civman2000] i like iroqs...
23:24:55 [Timeline] no...babylon scientific civ man! (dont know if egypt is?)
23:24:59 [civman2000] and babs too...
23:25:17 [Trip] egypt is what, industrious and religious?
23:25:18 [Tassadar5000] Egypt is industrious. It allows us to complete things faster
23:25:24 [Timeline] religious, only 1 turn anarchy drool
23:25:28 [Tassadar5000] yes trip.
23:25:42 [civman2000] i like both, but the iroqs can give you an even bigger tech lead on a pangea map...
23:25:52 [Trip] later on Tass
23:25:57 [civman2000] religious is top priority
23:25:58 [Trip] once city size > 12
23:26:04 [Timeline] indy gets you faster settlers too right?
23:26:12 [Timeline] that could go along well with city planing........
23:26:18 [Tassadar5000] yeah, getting a city size 12 isnt too difficult.
23:26:19 [Timeline] i mean faster workers agh
23:26:25 [Ninot] uhh, faster workers, yeah
23:26:26 [Tassadar5000] and the workers are a nice bonus as well
23:26:29 [civman2000] yep
23:26:46 [civman2000] yeah, if only we could have every bonus...
23:26:48 [Trip] let's hope we don't get stuck in the middle of a jungle O_o
23:26:56 [Timeline] ok.....sigh, i shall follow my comrades
23:27:00 [Timeline] my god be with us
23:27:00 [civman2000] i made a mod where every civ had every bonus and every uu
23:27:02 [Trip] we should make our own uber-civ
23:27:31 [civman2000] tthe uus didnt make golden ages and it turned out you needed to appease all 6 bonuses to get a ga
23:27:57 [civman2000] only differences between civs were starting techs
23:28:25 [civman2000] that made india (i think, commercial and religious, right) the best
23:29:58 [Tassadar5000] This isnt much of a debate, is it Civman?
23:30:50 [civman2000] the debate was good
23:31:02 [civman2000] we just agree a lot
23:31:15 [Timeline] well you have me both thinking, out of all the ministarial positions, science is gonna be the hardest to decide
23:31:18 [civman2000] that's the problem...
23:31:21 [Tassadar5000] Civman, what are your few starting techs
23:32:45 [civman2000] starting techs: bronze and iron working, warrior code, alphabet, writing
23:33:57 [Tassadar5000] Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Alphabet, Writing, Literature.
23:37:11 [civman2000] oh in the top techs i forgot cermeonial burial...it's been months since i wasnt religious
23:37:33 [Tassadar5000] Civman, just being prepared for everything.
23:37:53 [Tassadar5000] i'm always religious when I choose someone, unless i'm persia.
23:38:21 [civman2000] yeah, persia rules too...everything about them except not being religious
23:46:47 [Tassadar5000] Civman: I understand why you start with Bronze Working. But why Iron Working, and then why WARRIOR CODE?
23:47:02 [civman2000] that wasnt in order, that was just a list
23:47:32 [Tassadar5000] Then what order do you predict it will be in?
23:48:18 [civman2000] bronze working, warrior code, iron working, alphabet (if we havent traded for it yet), writing...
23:48:50 [civman2000] then maybe literature...
23:48:50 [Tassadar5000] And that may change due to unforseen circumstances, of course. But why warrior code?
23:49:04 [civman2000] i'm not sure
23:49:21 [Space05us] cheap offensive units
23:49:24 [civman2000] usually i'll have traded for it or found it in a hut by that time...
23:51:41 [Tassadar5000] Civman, in your long term plans, what are you placing emphasis on?
23:52:06 [civman2000] too far off
23:52:16 [civman2000] i'm worrying about the first term for now
23:52:45 [civman2000] but in the middle ages get all those wonders from unneeded techs asap, if our science is secured by then
23:52:51 [Tassadar5000] Er, let me rephrase that. What are your plans for after the middle ages (assuming we get there fairly quickly)
23:53:34 [civman2000] feudalism-chivalry-engineering-invention-gunpowder
23:53:48 [civman2000] trade/buy for montheism and theology
23:53:59 [civman2000] past there i cant say
23:54:25 [Tassadar5000] Hmm...In my experience, you just named the techs that the computer researches first. (Deud, Chiv, Engine, Invention, Gun)
23:54:59 [civman2000] well, the ai is smart and goes for the good techs!
23:55:16 [civman2000] but you can always get monotheism out of all the sicentific civs...

[Captain]

double post
deleted

[Captain]

horses, swords, military expansion (stopping when we are dominant and corruption makes further acquisition pointless), all the while building roads, getting luxuries/strat resources, then switching to cultural expansion, temples, libraries, courthouses, trade...

security techs first, then productivity/infrastructure techs, then culture techs

whoever takes this approach or a similar one in the ancient age will have my vote.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Captain
horses, swords, military expansion (stopping when we are dominant and corruption makes further acquisition pointless), all the while building roads, getting luxuries/strat resources, then switching to cultural expansion, temples, libraries, courthouses, trade...

security techs first, then productivity/infrastructure techs, then culture techs

whoever takes this approach or a similar one in the ancient age will have my vote.

If you read back, you will notice that we both have taken similiar stances to the ancient age. This will, no doubt complicate your vote.

I suggest reading back to see exactly which plan you agree with more.

[Kuciwalker]

Again, the Science Advisor is really a secretarial post. The only real responsibility is advising on what to research next, and that is essentially determined by the polls. You should vote for someone who will give you good polls, with lots of forthought, etc.

[Spiffor]

I support Tassadar, because he seems able to think calmly about every consequences. Not that Civman is bad, but I think Tass will do a better job in this position, because of his foreseeing ability.

[Kuciwalker]

Why does everybody ignore me??? (runs crying home to mommy)

[atawa]

Might have something to do with posting every 2 minutes all day on this forum

[Kuciwalker]

Everone else posts just as often (well, a few at least .