Israel civ

[SIV]

Posted by silpy:

Sorry to rain on your parade, but when anybody suggests a new Civ to be on Civ III, I think about how it would cope on a real world map. Isreal, as some of you have noted, has dissapeared form c. 600BC-1948AD

That's not totally corect!
from 167 BC to 63 BC there was an independet jewish state in Israel
(and beyond it's current borders).
There was a large number of jews in Israel from the turn of the century and the 1920's... not from 1948.

All of you talking about that:

The jews 'returning' to Israel after WWII, most of them at least, did not ascend from those who once lived in Israel

are just.. STUPID.
That's just not true.
Until this century we were a closed community and even now most of the jews marry jews and continue jewish tradition.

[Eli]

New Israelis? Get ICQ guys, come to the OT, we need all the help you can give.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by SIV
Until this century we were a closed community and even now most of the jews marry jews and continue jewish tradition.

even if only 1 in a hundred marriages was not perfectly intra-jewish, over these many generations (> 6 generations per century, 20 centuries --> >120 generations) there is an enormous amount of "foreign" blood.

and if the community didn't mix at all would make the harassment logical. in no place people like others who don't integrate into local society. it the best case you're tolerated, usually not even that.

you see the same problem generally with all kind of religions, races, ethnicies and cultures. it's expected that you integrate. if you don't, you become unpopular...

the jewish people would have had a lot less (that doesn't mean) problems throughout history if they would have integrated and adapted. and the same counts for all other minorities.

note: i strictly disagree with ANY kind of violence against ANY kind of minority. but i DO understand why it is, was and will always be a problem for many people. not everyone is tolerant...

[SIV]

Originally posted by sabrewolf


even if only 1 in a hundred marriages was not perfectly intra-jewish, over these many generations (> 6 generations per century, 20 centuries --> >120 generations) there is an enormous amount of "foreign" blood.

Most of those who married non jews (and they were a lot less than 1/100) left the comunity and didn't see themselves as jews - so they didn't bring the foreign blood.
For example: jews coming from Arab countries look like Jews comping from Europe and you could tell them from Arabs. (The same is from jews from Argentina, Russia, UK...)

And it's not 20 centuries ...
Jews became less-religious only in the last 3 centuries.

New Israelis? Get ICQ guys, come to the OT, we need all the help you can give

My number: 111183196
and come to where?

[Sirotnikov]

OT = Off Topic

That forum near the "community" forum, where posts don't count.

We're arguing about Israel for years there

[Sirotnikov]

The jews 'returning' to Israel after WWII, most of them at least, did not ascend from those who once lived in Israel

Sorry, but american genetic research companies found that Jews share several genetic codes.

Especially known is the "Kohen" gene. A gene shared by 80% of the Jews named Kohen (or Katz or Kogan) [in hebrew : Priest / Priest of justice] from all around the world. This gene is believed to be traced to one person - a priest during the second temple (several hundred years BC).


Given the fact that the jews were hated all around europe and opressed in the meditterenean , there is no reason to believe anyone would voluntarily convert to a persecuted, unpopular and wierd secluded religion.

[Silpy]

Let me clarify

1)You are right about a indipendant Israel during 167 BC-63 BC. I forgot. It was a line of high-preist kings was'nt it?

2)Jewish immigration did start to Israel/Palestine/the Holy Land/or the Levant (my Fave name) around 1900, but it really kicked of in 1945, due to obvous reasons.

3)'The jews 'returning' to Israel after WWII, most of them at least, did not ascend from those who once lived in Israel' I DID NOT SAY THAT

4)'Until this century we were a closed community and even now most of the jews marry jews and continue jewish tradition' The closed communitites of Jews were more in Eastern Europe than Western Europe.
The Jews of Western Europe were (Comparitivly) intergrated into mainstream society.

5) Like any ethnic minority, there has been a lot of Jew marring non-Jews, etc which is pridictible when you live in another nation is actully GOOD for you. A few particuly nasty genetic deseases showed themselves in Orthiodox Jews living in Poland in particular, because the gene pool had gotten too shallow. (Royalty also had this problem)

6) If they had totally intergrated, they would of eventully lost their culture, language and religion. The knack is to intergrate enough to be seen as being a person who is patroitic, but also happens to be a differant ethnic group. (That should'nt be a point really)
That is why in the UK some people (not me) are becoming distrustful of asian people (for obvious reasons), as they are not seen be the readership of 'the Sun' (nb. A right wing, grotty 'newspaper' owned by Rupert Murdoch) as not intergating at all, deliberatly not learning English and using the issue of race to get them hand outs. DISLAMER I HATE ANYBODY WHO HAS THIS VEIW THAT I HAVE JUST VOICED! I am not violent, but if the Goverment wants to crack down on racists/Nazis, I personally volenteer to become an 'exterminator' of a differant type of vermin, free of charge. The world will be a happier place!

That is all people.

PS. On Civ-CTP II, if any Civs turn Nazi, I declare war,
and will fight to the end!

[Heresson]

.
OK, your info on Poland is greater than mine. I admit that. 80% of the world's Jewish population were living in Poland? Is it counting ethinic or practising? Anyway, lots of Jews did settle in Poland due to it being the 'Jewish Pale', set up by Catherine the Great.

I don't know to which times does this number refer to.
When it comes to the borders of Jewish settlements,
they limited to post-Polish territories. But were they to move Jews there or -reather- to keep them there?
If tzars wanted to get rid of Jews, they could bann them completely, not restrict their settlement to what seemed to them their legal posession.
There were Jews in Russia earlier, and I think they were banned before; still, their number was completly insignificant in comparison to Polish Jews.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Apep
As usual it is the Britishs' fault,
Well not really it was the USA that gave Palesine to the Jews

The USA's only involvement in the formation of Israel was limited to being one of a number of country to vote for the UN proposal and being the first country to recognize the new state (which probably caused Russia to follow soon afterwards with it's recognition).

That was about the only major help the US provided Israel for most of the next 20 years.

[Edan]

Especially known is the "Kohen" gene. A gene shared by 80% of the Jews named Kohen (or Katz or Kogan) [in hebrew : Priest / Priest of justice] from all around the world

Indeed. IIRC, There was also a tribe of Ethiopian Jews that were suspected of being Kohanim that were tested, and it was discovered that they shared the gene to an even higher percentage, I think.

(I've known a few people who've spelt it Cohen).

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Edan


The USA's only involvement in the formation of Israel was limited to being one of a number of country to vote for the UN proposal and being the first country to recognize the new state (which probably caused Russia to follow soon afterwards with it's recognition).

That was about the only major help the US provided Israel for most of the next 20 years.

So says you.

For those interested, major money was sent to the Hagganah, Palmach, et al, by Jewish American gangsters such as Abner Zwillman and Meyer Lansky.

Zwillman was a boss of Murder Incorporated. Do a Web search for him; there will be loads of sites.

FYI: I would rather as an American take all those billions of dollars and throw them down a rat hole than give them to Israel, Egypt, or anyone else.

http://www.aj6.org/jpbo/411/page3.html

[sprucemoose3311]

internet research

hehehe the internet is a place of high honesty and morality. On the internet there is no false or biased information.

I give you one fun fact: Beezlebub is a word made up by the Pharisees to mock Jesus. Beezlebub means lord of the dung. Beezlebul means... well you will just have to go to a scholarly library and find out.

Hehe a Christmas hat...

[sprucemoose3311]

Hebrew

Ruler: I Am Who I Am (they were a theocracy until they asked for a king why not use... )
UU: Prophet (1.1.2) or mech infantry with +1 defense
Traits: Commercial, Religious

there should be a penalty where if you tell them to move left they go right sometimes because a handful of Hebrews do not seem to listen to their ruler (in ancient times)

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by sabrewolf


even if only 1 in a hundred marriages was not perfectly intra-jewish, over these many generations (> 6 generations per century, 20 centuries --> >120 generations) there is an enormous amount of "foreign" blood.

Actually, as improbable as it sounds, there was practically NO admixture in the past 2000 years.

http://www.afhu.org/news/01afhupr/111901.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/dailynews/geneticbrothers000509.html

Genetic studies prove that Jews from Poland are more closely related to Jews from Morrocco or Iraq than they are to non-Jewish Poles.

[SeferKoheleth]

You are wrong on several counts.

First of all, pre-Zionism, Palestine was basically an empty land.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27338

With the immigration of Jews and the British takeover, Palestine saw a gigantic wave of Arab immigration from Syria, Egypt and Jordan. For the most part, the Palestinian refugees of 48 decended from this group of recent immigrants-- what right do they have to a land they barely lived in?

You are also dead wrong about Hebron. When it was under Islamic control, Jews were forbidden from worshipping at the Tomb of the Patriarchs for hundreds of years-- as they were from 1948-1967.

Similarly, the idea of Hebron being an Arab city itself dates only to the 1920s. Before then, Hebron had a large and thriving Jewish population dating back 2500 years.... before they were killed or chased out by Arab rioters.

So basically I take it that you think, despite its history, Hebron should be Judenrein.