Names of Civilisations in 4000BC

[TacticalGrace]

The names of civilisations, in the real world, hanve changed over time. But the game begins in 4000BC and it would be silly to name a civ based on a more modern name. For example, Persia should not be called Iran because that is a 20th Century name (as was discussed in a thread on this board recently).

Should the English be called the Britons because the term english was much more modern than that.

[Hagbart]

no

[Palaiologos]

Yes, no.

[Dauphin]

English should not be called Britons.

Albion maybe, but then people lose the relevance.

[Jethro83]

By that logic, you could call Babylon Iraq, call Rome Italy, or call Zululand South Africa.

For the same reason I don't find it appropriate to name Persia as Iran, Babylon as Iraq, Rome as Italy, Aztecs as Mexico, and Zululand as South Africa, I don't think it to be appropriate to be naming the Germans as Teutons or Goths, the English as Britons, or the French as Franks, etc.

And what about America? If such a system were implemented, what would America be called in 4000BC?

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by LordAzreal
what about America? If such a system were implemented, what would America be called in 4000BC?

Iroquois?

[Hagbart]

But what should the Iroquois then be called? We don't want 2 unknown Indian tribes in the game! One is enough.

[DarkCloud]

No, you can't do that... Mainly because the idea of Civilization is to give the nations their names when they were the GREATEST empire... That is why Persia is not Iraq and the English are not "various barbarian tribes"

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
No, you can't do that... Mainly because the idea of Civilization is to give the nations their names when they were the GREATEST empire... That is why Persia is not Iraq and the English are not "various barbarian tribes"

I think you have identified the key concept. I guess historical accuracy belongs in scenarios only. or in a completely different game. not civ.

[Hagbart]

I think the English should be called 'Various barbarian tribes'.

[DarkCloud]

I guess historical accuracy belongs in scenarios only. or in a completely different game. not civ.

Yes, that is what the scenarios are for.

Civ is broad, not narrow. It is like a survey history course. It gets some things right, but get some things wrong simply by omission.

Perhaps if they implemented "progressive civ-names" that evolved with time... but then the player would lose some sense of 'control' as in beign able to make their civ whatever they wanted on a fantasy world.

[Lord Merciless]

Every civ except Egyptians were Barbarians in 4000BC.

[Ananias]

BTW, just to be clear about the English thing: The Brits were conquered by the Angles and the Saxons (the groups who became the English). They were NOT the same civilization.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Every civ except Egyptians were Barbarians in 4000BC.

Now that just isn't true. The Sumerians were building cities before them and there is evidence appearing of cities in India before that.

By 4000BC, the inhabitants of the islands of Britain had developed farming techniques and had built large hilltop enclosures (sites such as Windmill Hill, Wiltshire and Maiden Castle in Dorset). [civ:size 1 or 2 city] These 'Neolithic' people also buried their dead in long barrows in the earth. [civ:ceremonial burial]

In china the Yangshau culture was making pottery by 6000 bc. "Careful excavation revealed the tresence of 45 houses, 200 storage pits, needles, tools, arrowheads, fish hooks and six kilns. There were also 174 adult graves, 76 children's graves and 37 funerary urns. The Nelolithic people of Banpo hunted, fished, cultivated millet, cooked their food and raised pigs as domestic animals." [http://www.chinavoc.com/history/yangshao.htm]

"Size 1 City" or "barbarian hut"? whichever, they seem to have discovered pottery (perhaps they should build the hanging gardens)

The Babylonians had invented the water clock by 3500 BC. What kind of barbarians are these?

Meanwhile in the Ukraine...
Ukrainians had domesticated the horse by 4000 bc [civ:horse riding] and the oldest map discovered was in the Ukraine, dated to 10000bc! [civ:mapmaking though I guess there wasn't much galley building in the ukraine]
The Cucuteni civilization which is presently Romania and the western part of the Ukraine had cities of ten to fifteen thousand inhabitants in around 4,000 B.C. [civ:size 1 or 2 city]

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Ananias
BTW, just to be clear about the English thing: The Brits were conquered by the Angles and the Saxons (the groups who became the English). They were NOT the same civilization.

The Celts/Britons/Romans were displaced from modern day England by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes.

Similar to European displacement in the US.