Ottomans Over-Rated

[teturkhan]

I am happy to know Firaxis has included the Turks in PTW. However the Ottomans though very popular in the Western World shouldn't have been picked. They did not even originate from modern day Turkey, in actuality Turkish people have a rich history that starts elsewhere.

That place being Central Asia from which they came. In history the Turks and Mongols battled it out in the Steppes of Asia for supremacy. The Mongols decisively beat the Turks around 1200AD, many Turks joined the Mongol Ranks such as the Uygurs, and Turkish was the main language used through out the Mongol empire. This epic struggle however is not given due attention. Instead we skip over it and proceed to a more European version of history, one where the Turks are recognized only as the Ottomans.

This blind eye given towards people from the steppes of Asia gives a bias Western version of history. Just read a few books on the subject and you will see many times over centuries how Central Asians impacted history on a colossal scale. The Huns lead by Attila were from the Steppes, so were the Khazars, Bulgars, Seljuks and many more… even the mighty Ottomans felt the wrath of Central Asian might when decisively beaten in 1402 by Timur-Lenk the Tartar. The Chinese also knew all to well of these "barbaric nomads" from Asia, the Turks and Mongols. Unable to effectively deal with them, they opted to build the Great Wall to keep them out.

In picking the Ottomans it is most likely then that their capital will be Constantinople (modern day Istanbul). This I don't think is a smart choice since there are already too many Civs in that part of the world, especially since places like Central Asia are practically left empty. The entire vast area of Central Asia belongs only to the Mongols, no struggle no having to unite the Turkic & Mongol Tribes. Anyway I know when PTW comes out I will change the location of the Turks, and as for their special unit I rather have something that reflects their true history of having fast light horsemen than to add another foot soldier to the game like the Janissaries.

Thank God we can edit the game, but still I thought I would share some info and touch on a larger picture of Turkish history that many are not aware of. If you think its minor, then I ask you what do you think people would say if there was no England in the Game but instead only Americans? Brazil but no Portugal, Mexico but no Spain etc... see my point?

[monkspider]

The Ottomans were the empire that brought christian europe to it's knees under the rule of emperors like Suleyman the Magnificent. The Ottoman Empire was the most powerful state in europe for a pretty good while. Turkey has only existed as a proper state since the 20's. Your point that the Ottomans were just an offshoot of sorts of the much-longer running series of barbaric turkish raiders is somewhat fair. But simply arguing that the Ottomans shouldn't be in because their predeccessors are not is like arguing that the Greeks shouldn't be in because the Minoans are not. The various bands of Turkish raiders may be longer running, but the Ottomans have done considerably more to gain inclusioni as one of the great civs of history.

[Pythagoras]

Well in all fairness, when us stupid westerners look at Europe (and maybe somewhat the middle east) we see a plethora of cultures. Then when we look at a map of Africa it seems all that can come out of our mouth is ... err... Zulu!?!? they were scary and killed white people, I think we can include them... AS THE MOST BELLIGERENT CIV IN THE GAME! Oh yeah they had other important interesting facets to their culture, but we just remmember Shaka killing white people...

[zorbop]

it also bothers me also how there are so few african cultures...
and no south american or austrellian.
what south american cultures to add in is easy, and there are a good amount of austrellion cultures to pick from, but if you were to add another african culture what would it be?

egypt and zulu were obvious choices (although egypt is more middle eastern that african), were there any other very dominant african cultures?

you can't really choose any modern ones because all but about 2 of the contries have been european colonies in the past 50-200 years. that would leave liberia(american freed slave colonie) and ethiopia for modern ones... i can't think of any others.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by zorbop
egypt and zulu were obvious choices (although egypt is more middle eastern that african), were there any other very dominant african cultures?

you can't really choose any modern ones because all but about 2 of the contries have been european colonies in the past 50-200 years. that would leave liberia(american freed slave colonie) and ethiopia for modern ones... i can't think of any others.

Medieval Mali (Mansa Musa at Timbuktu) would be a good choice. His overspending pilgramage to Mecca ruined the gold market in Egypt for decades - and of course earned the attention of the Portuguese . . .

I'd like to see the Inca and the Brazilians added myself, along with Old Mali. But nooo, who are we going to get? The Celts! Isn't europe already overrepresented?

[candybo]

I would agree that Europe IS over-represented, except for the mind-numbing non-inclusion of the Mighty Polish Empire !RAH!

[Menkerios]

I agree, ottomans are overrated. A milkcrate, footstool, or even a stack of magazines works just as well.

[Kuciwalker]

I think adding the Celts was a mistake. Look at the size of England on the world maps. You though EUROPE was overcrowded. I think they should have added Carthaginians or something instead.

[The Kaiser]

The Carthagians are in Play the World, but I agree there are a lot of blank spaces on an Earth map not used in this add-on disk.

The game is crying out for the Inca's, as the Aztec's get South America all to themselves. Totally imbalancing! Maybe Firaxis couldn't decide on a suitable special unit for them that was different enough from what's already in the game.

And what about Australasia, a complete blank space again! How about having the Maori's start in New Zealand to fill the gap.

I think the most pointless of the new Civs has to be the Arabs. Why have the Arabs when you already have the Babylonians, Persians and Egyptians? The Arabs are all these 3 put together surely!

Don't get me wrong I'm looking forward to having these New Civs, but not at the expense of more pressing needs for the complete Earth map experience.

[teturkhan]

Arabs

Much of these cultures have been lost/fused into an Arab one.

I see your point with the Babylonians and Egyptians since they both speak Arabic, but the Persians do not and the same goes with the Turks. They share similarities just like the many cultures of Europe do, but they are not all the same.

[Hagbart]

I don't care much if they call them the Otoomans or the Turks, it is basically the same people. I would have preferred the Turks though, but that is just because it is called Turkey.

[leunames]

I don't think the Ottomans are overrated. I think it's appropriate for the Ottomans to represent the Turks as a whole, in part due because the modern Turkish state is a product of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans are regarded in Arabic history as the greatest Islamic empire ever, and many historians acknowledge that it was the Ottomans, with the 1 exception of the Byzantine Emperor Justinian, who came the closest to actually recreating the old Roman Empire in its entirety .

teturkhan I agree that Central Asians have made a tremendous impact on history, but I think you should reconsider your stance on the location of the Ottomans. Their capital should and must be Constantinople. Now I would have really like for the Byzantines to be in the game or the expansion, but with the Romans there it would have been a bit redundant. While it's true that the game already covers many European powers and the region is a bit crowded, there is no official representation yet for Constantinople. Don't forget that this was the largest, most powerful, richest city in Europe for much of the middle ages and all of the dark ages following the fall of the western empire, far outstripping London, Paris, and Rome combined in importance and prestige. Without Constantinople, it is very likely that Europeans, and for that matter North Americans and South Americans, would all be speaking some brand of Arabic or even Turksih today.

Simply moving the Turks is similar to just ignoring a vital part of history, like the central Asians. Besides, where would you place the capital? At Ankara???? A little unimpressive, to say the least....

[teturkhan]

Nomadic Hordes

Everything you said is correct, however I still feel the Turks belong in Central Asia. That was the land they originated from, where they lived in for thousands of years. Can you imagine the game having the US, Brazil and Chile but none of the countries they originated from like Spain, Portugal or England? This however is the case with the Ottomans. The people from the steppes of Asia have impacted the world far before the Mongols and Ottomans came into power. The Great Wall of China wasn't made just for the 13th Century Mongols. It was made because for thousands of years they kept getting invaded. Attila the Hun was from Central Asia and he went on to sack Rome, Turks invaded India early around 600AD then a thousand years later they formed the Moghul Empire there, the Crusades were fought against the Turks, the list goes on and on. The Ottomans were the last of the great tribes from Asia, possibly the greatest. They came to Anatolia and started carving out an empire from the faltering Byzantines.

Final Point: Europe is full of too many Civs as it is. Placing the Turks in Central Asia will bring balance to the game. The Greeks can still build their Constantinople, and the Turks well, they will have to invade if they want it

By the way, the Ottoman Sultans never lost sight of the fact they were from Asia. Many times they refer to themselves as Khan, especially after Sultan Selim married the Crimean Khan's daughter, who was descended from Genghis Khan. A little off topic but its neat how people don't realize that though the Mongol Empire collapsed centuries before, Genghis Khan's blood still flowed through the Ottoman Line right up until the end in the 20th Century.

[PMLF]

Originally posted by leunames
Now I would have really like for the Byzantines to be in the game or the expansion, but with the Romans there it would have been a bit redundant.

Byzantines=Romans


The Byzantines were the Eastern Roman Empire. Even if they spoke Greek instead of Latins they called themselves Romans.

The word Byzantine was created by the Franks to allow them to claim to be the heir of the Roman Empire.

[leunames]

Yes that is correct. Except that the word Byzantine actually referred to the denizens of the Greek colony of Byzantium, before Constantine founded the new capital of the Roman Empire on the site.

The word Byzantine was coined by French historians who wished to differentiate the cutlure and 1000 year history of the Eastern Roman Empire from the it's younger counterpart, the Western Roman Empire.

In a legal and political sense, even geographical, the Byzantines indeed were the heirs of Rome. Culturally it was another matter entirely, but the seat of the Roman Empire was Constantinople after 324, and it remained so until the Ottomans claimed it for their own in 1453, en route to nearly recreating the old Roman Empire in its entirety.