8 new civs to appear in expansion pack

[caveman]

The Portugese should be in. After all they controlled a large portion of the world at one point. They were only rivalled by the Spanish, Dutch and English on the size of their empires.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Ribannah
And everyone who voted gets the XP for FREE!

Is this to be taken serious?

I did vote on some occasions, just don't know whether it was the relevant ones... will I get it? WILL I GET IT?

[ahenobarb]

Liechtenstein must be in the XP.

Yeah, they're small, but we all know they crave nothing less than world domination. One millemeter at a time.

[DhulKhidr]

My fifteen cents...

Definites:
1. Turks (Religious, Militaristic)
2. Arabs (Religious, Commercial)
3. Mongols (Militaristic, Expansionist)
4. Spanish (Religious, Expansionist)
5. Byzantines (Religious, Industrious)
6. Venetians/Florentines (Commerical, Industrious)
7. Cartaginians/Phoenicians (Commercial, Expansionist)

Contenders:
Incas (Religious, Expansionist)
Mayans (Religious, Scientific)
Vikings (Expansionist, ???)
Celts (Religious, Expansionist)
Abyssinian (Religious, ???)

All of the definites listed had viable civilizations that had a significant influence on modern history. Off all my listed contenders, I can only say the Vikings had any significant impact on modern history, and they never really had civilization to speak of, their antecedents did. If the Vikings are not going to be chosen though, I think the Mayans should be over anyone else. They did appear to have a significant influence over their antecedents in Mesoamerica.

[TheBigTurkey]

What I want:

1. Turks: Fatih Sultan Mehmet (II) or Danishment; religious, miltaristic; UU janissary (+1 attack rifleman); Middle Eastern
2. Arabs: Salahuddin (Saladin) or Harun al-Rashid; religious, scientific; UU mamluk (don't know what it does); Middle Eastern
3. Mongols: Genghiz Khan or Kublai Khan; expansionist, militaistic; UU [I don't know the name] (+1 speed cavalry); Asian
4. Byzantine: Constantine or Justinian; commercial, scientific; UU dromon (+1 attack caravel); Meditteranean
5. Incans: [some ruler]; industrious, scientific; UU [a mystery to me]; American
6. Spanish: Ferdinand or some other guy; religious, scientific; UU [enhanced privateer] (+1 attack privateer); European
7. Koreans: [?????]; commercial, scientific; UU turtle ship? (+1 defense frigate); Asian
8. Songhai: Mansa Musa (sorry if this is the wrong civ); commercial, expansionist; UU [don't know]; Meditteranean

These are my take on the best to include. I'm sorry if there's historical inaccuracies here, but i hope on the most part they're right (and these civs are in). And my Turkey's better be in there.....or else.

[Eli]

A game without the Hebrews will not get my money.

[Ecthy]

go play ctp then

[DhulKhidr]

Hebrews

I guess they should be included. Especially if the choice is between them and the Vikings. The Hebrews were insignificant from political/temporal standpoint, but their religious legacy was and is without a doubt still powerful, and makes it worth giving them consideration.

[TheBigTurkey]

I still think that my list is much better, and I don't really think that the Hebrews are an 'important' civ for Civ3, because they were a minor civ. All the civs in my list were major, and their influence (especially the Arabs) is felt today. All the Hebrews have for them is Judaism, which, however important of a religion, is professed by a VERY small number of people in the world. Of course, to be politically correct, they will probably somehow sneak in, but I hope thats not the case.

[jasev]

All the Hebrews have for them is Judaism, which, however important of a religion, is professed by a VERY small number of people in the world

Maybe, but both Christianism and Islam are based on Judaism, so their influence have been huge.

[TheBigTurkey]

Not really. Many things in Islam, for example, are completely different than In Judaism. Can't be sure about Christianity, but if the Hebrews want representation, their civilization should have been more significant and/or at a different spot. If they were Meso-American, I think that their wishes to be included would be more likely, but at the current rate I don't think that they will go in unless there are mass Jewish protests which threaten to bankrupt Firaxis if they don't include Hebrews. Which could be likely.....

[DhulKhidr]

Originally posted by jasev


Maybe, but both Christianism and Islam are based on Judaism, so their influence have been huge.

I am stepping onto the soapbox. Please forgive the spittle...
I agree with Big Turkey. Judaism is not a precursor to Islam. It is more akin to an older brother, an earlier manifestation of what became known later as Abrahamic monotheism. There are many prophets (monotheistic proponents) such as Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot and many others that were not Hebrew (descendants of Jacob), and therefore were representative of a non-Judaic form of monotheism that later developed into the distinct religions Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Sabianism, Christianity and Islam.

Back to the Hebrews as a civ...
As I mentioned earlier, they were insignificant and in no way compare to any of the civs that I have mentioned in my earlier post. But, they were a civ with a legacy, and their UU could be an ancient slinger a la King David (Peace be upon him) slaying Goliath with a slingshot and a rock. But all of the civs I mentioned in my earlier post should be included first.

[DhulKhidr]

Originally posted by TheBigTurkey
What I want:

1. Turks: Fatih Sultan Mehmet (II) or Danishment; religious, miltaristic; UU janissary (+1 attack rifleman); Middle Eastern
2. Arabs: Salahuddin (Saladin) or Harun al-Rashid; religious, scientific; UU mamluk (don't know what it does); Middle Eastern
3. Mongols: Genghiz Khan or Kublai Khan; expansionist, militaistic; UU [I don't know the name] (+1 speed cavalry); Asian
4. Byzantine: Constantine or Justinian; commercial, scientific; UU dromon (+1 attack caravel); Meditteranean
5. Incans: [some ruler]; industrious, scientific; UU [a mystery to me]; American
6. Spanish: Ferdinand or some other guy; religious, scientific; UU [enhanced privateer] (+1 attack privateer); European
7. Koreans: [?????]; commercial, scientific; UU turtle ship? (+1 defense frigate); Asian
8. Songhai: Mansa Musa (sorry if this is the wrong civ); commercial, expansionist; UU [don't know]; Meditteranean

My breakdown of your list, civ by civ...
Turks:
They should be in there. I would love to hear an explanation as to why they were not included in the first place. Scratch the Janissaries and insert Gazis. BigT, you all ready read my post in the other thread explaining why.

Arabs:
Another unbelievable omission! I wonder if their omission is due to prejudice? I could accept scientific instead of commercial. That could go either way. As for a UU, the Mamluks were Turks, so they shouldn't be the Arabs' UU. I have an interesting suggestion instead. During their first expansion the Arabs primarily used camel and horse mounted warriors. Since there are so many of those types of units in Civ III all ready, what about a modern, Civ II partisan-like UU, similar to the ones who drove the Israelis out of southern Lebanon?

Mongols:
Again, another incredible omission! The largest civilization ever excepting (perhaps) the British and French colonial empires, and the Soviet Union. Also influentiential and lasting a few centuries. Under Genghis Khan they were the greatest military force (taking into account their historical placement) that has ever existed. They have to have the baddest horse unit ever, before the invention of Gunpowder. More movement than any horse unit, including cavalry, and maybe the same attack number as cavalry. The Mongols' UU must be so threateningly powerful during the period when they can be developed that every other civ on the same continent and even overseas (Kublai Khan's foiled invasion of Japan) has to feel immediate pressure to develop Gunpowder and massive amounts of Musketmen.

Yes, I am a geek with nothing better to do with my time...

Spanish:
Firaxis, you guys are the greatest, but leaving out the Spanish??? BigT, you think the Spanish were/are scientific??? I don't even think they invented the Inquisition. No, they must be militaristic or exspanionist. No privateer either, The English used the privateer against them. They could have an enhanced Galleon, or enhanced foot soldier, Swordsman maybe, not Pikemen. They were renowned for their foot soldiers in the 1400s and 1500s.

Byzantines:
Ya. They are a must. They are not just a knock-off of the Romans. They were distinct and powerful. Definitely more worthy than the Vikings, Iroquois, Aztecs, Zulus or Indians.

Songhai:
I know they were powerful. I don't know much else. I wonder if this is one of those "discrimination" omissions. You know, Muslim and all.

Incas:
Ya, I like the industrious quality for sure. Scientific or commercial is also good. I don't know if they are better than the Mayans though. Plus, what about the Renaissance Italians like the Venetians, and the Carthaginians? Those other omitted civs are a better choice.

Koreans:
No offense, but what did they do? No way.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by DhulKhidr
Koreans:
No offense, but what did they do? No way.

Perhaps you should not pass judgment about something you are unknowledgeable of.

The Koreans had many world-class achievements including inventing the world's first movable metal type (200 years before Gutenberg's Bible), the world' first meteorological instrument to measure rainfall, and the world's first ironclad battleship. They also invented one of the world's most phonetically accurate alphabets.

http://www.korea.net/learnaboutkorea/library/library_slides_9.html

Highly advanced in other fields such as astronomy, architecture, music, literature, poetry, painting, philosophy, and theology, they helped Japan make its first steps from a "culture" to a "civilization". They introduced farming, bronze working, horseback riding, ceremonial burial, pottery, writing, etc. to the Japanese. You may not know that Korean nobles formed a large part of Japanese aristocracy and the first emperor is believed to be the descendant of a Korean princess who arrived with invading horseriders from the peninsula.

In fact, the Koreans continued to play a key role through even what's considered the most traditional "Japanese" Heian period. It is interesting to note that during this civilizing process, it was a Korean envoy who asked that China not call Japan "the Land of Dwarf Pirates" but rather "the Land of the Rising Sun". He was sent by Prince Shotoku, who himself was a descendant of Korean nobles as were nearly all of Japan's early rulers.

Indeed, the Koreans established one of the longest-standing and greatest civilizations in the world with 5,000 years of continuous history. They conquered most of Manchuria and parts of Siberia, territory roughly the size of all of Western Europe. During one war, the Koreans defeated one million Chinese troops leading to the collapse of the Sui Dynasty. In fact, they themselves have only been defeated twice during all of these years: once by the unstoppable Mongol invasion in 1231 and the other time by Japanese deception and strategic maneuvering (not battle) in 1910.

Most of Korea's greatest artifacts and documents, however, have been destroyed or stolen by the Japanese. Sadly to say, even Korea's history is largely "hidden" because of Japanese efforts to hide the past. So, while Japan acknowledges learning much from China, it does not do so with Korea despite the overwhelming evidence. That is partly why we know so much more about Japan than Korea, even though the latter had a greater civilization than the former for a long time.

[DhulKhidr]

Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus
The who? Yeah...that's kinda my point. Who the heck has ever heard of the Ummayyads? And in that case, why not call them the Ummayyads instead of the Arabs? The Arabs aren't a nation or empire. They are a race. Why don't we make a new civ called the Blacks? Or we could have one called the Whites.

I have heard of the Ummayyads, and the Abbasids, Fatimids, etc. They were all powerful Arab dynasties that ruled over extensive lands and a great civilization, much like the Ottomans, the pre-eminent Turkish empire and dynasty, was just one of many Turkish nations. You are correct the Arabs are a race but they also had an empire that, as I pointed our earlier, was ruled over by succeeding dynasties. I think both the Arabs and Turks should be included on merit, but the Turkish civ (and the Spanish) owes more to the Arab civ than the Arabs owe to the Turks.