Stop the America-bashing!

[SpencerH]

No I'm not arguing for its own sake. I'm trying to understand your extremist (from my perspective) viewpoint. Coherent political policies have nothing to do with pushing people around!

Coherent policies refers to concepts such as, how can America best support Israel's right to exist while having to deal with anti-israeli sentiment amongst the Arabic (Moslem) countries who supply much of our oil?

Pushing people around is another matter. American intervention in Bosnia might be considered to be "pushing people around" but since neither Europe nor Canada was prepared to do anything but talk, America acted.

What I'm asking you for is specific examples of what you are refering to? Steel! What about it? The steel industry in the USA has virtually disappeared compared to what it used to be because of price undercutting by the Japanese first and then the Koreans ("friends" who exist today because of American military support). Just who are the Americans pushing around in the middle east? The Kuwaitis who recently voted to not support action against Iraq????? The Israeli's who continue there offensive despite American protest? The Palestinians who continue with terrorist acts??

I havent kept track of the "softwood" problem you refer to. Its probably similar to, or a continuation of, the conflicts between the west coast logging industries that have been going on for (at least) 30 years. The Americans claim that the Canadian goverment unfairly supports the logging industry and therefore imposes tariffs on Canadian lumber products. Well maybe they do and maybe they dont. Instead of whining about it, maybe Canadians should stop buying orange juice from Florida. Buy it from Brazil instead! That action was threatened by the Canadian Govt. 30 years ago over the cedar shake and shingle industry but never happened. If you want to effect American actions you've got to hit them in the pocket book. Canadians buy a lot of orange juice (for example) but never had the guts to stand up to what was bad policy by the American Govt.

There are similar arguments for American tariffs on other products from around the world. I find that some have merit and some dont. I dont see such actions by the American Govt as "pushing people around" however.

[lorddread]

Originally posted by CRAZY


Put it this way... you see this kid going around the school yard pushing everyone around not caring what others think, just a general bully, will you be surpriesed when some little nerd he has beat up finds some way to get back at him?

The US for decades has asked permission to act in its own best interest. DO you know where this has gotten us? We are viewed as weak, lacking the will to act on our own.

Who do you feel sorry for? As a friend to the bully you feel empatetic toward his pain but you also might remind him it was his attitude in the first place that brought it on himself and if he didnt' want it to happen again he should change, altho if it does happen again as a friend you will be there to help him.

For once we don't want or need the rest of the worlds help. For the past 34 years, the world has lived with terrorism. Europeans know what it is like to be afraid to go to an airport, bank, movie theater etc. But what did you do about it? Did you root out the terrorists? Did you tell the countries that supported the terrorists, we aren't going to take it anymore, and if you do it again we will do this, this and this? No you complained, whined, and arrested a few individuals.

Now we have 15000 terrorists running around the world in 63 nations. The US has removed a terrorist regime without killing a whole lot of civilians and is in the process of removing the largest poppy field in the world (which is turned into opium and sold in Europe (US opium comes from South America)). We are actively rooting out terrorists in other countries.

But what is Europe doing? Wringing their hand, blaming us for acting unilaterally. We lost 2855 people in the largest terrorist act in world history. I think it is about time we acted unilaterally.

No Europe doesn't want us to go after Saddam. Why should they. Their companies have sold Saddam 1.5Billion US dollars worth of equipment used to make nuclear, chemical, and bio weapons. The chemical weapons were not only used against the Iranians, but against his own people.

I am sure you have been in a similar life situation!! Support from your parents is unconditional but don't be surpriesed when they let you know when you are being an ass!!

I got news for you, if the US is a child, we have long since grown up and moved out. I have said it before and I will say it again, "If our bombs aren't falling on your neighborhood, you have got nothing to complain about!"

KATN

[lorddread]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

Hey, I know about the fact, that some of the german generals were in soviet schools. We've been allies before Hitler betrayed you.

A brief History Lesson

Germany was forced into war with Russia for its very survival. As soon as Stalin signed the NonAgression Pact with Germany, he Informed his generals that they had 1 year to gear up for war. Stalin used the treaty as a way to stay out of the war until he had the forces to attack Germany.


Thus endith the lesson


KATN

[Admiral Stukov]

Originally posted by lorddread


A brief History Lesson

Germany was forced into war with Russia for its very survival. As soon as Stalin signed the NonAgression Pact with Germany, he Informed his generals that they had 1 year to gear up for war. Stalin used the treaty as a way to stay out of the war until he had the forces to attack Germany.


Thus endith the lesson


KATN

Although I agree with your other posts, this one I can't exactly say is true. Hitler was actually one of the few people Stalin could trust... and when German soldier's betrayed their nation and warned Stalin of the approaching attack, what did Stalin do? He executed them for trying to incite a revolt.


Anyways, about some of the *****ing about slavery above. Why is it that we are constantly *****ed at for the atrocities committed on the Native Americans, when places like England have had more recent ones (Less than 30 years ago the slaughter of 700 South African school children and wounding more thousands more), and yet I NEVER hear them being brought up.

Every time I visit a Canadian board there are always at least 3 anti-American replies per posts (and often a topic focused on bashing America). Canada, a country with an economy worse than Mexico's, and a military consisting of pad-wearing stick wielders (what we here in a America call a "hockey team"), constantly bragging about their once in half a century gold medal victory, can pretty much be summed up in this article, based on some crappy anti-American Canadian TV show...

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Crater/1908/movies/essay_three.html

For a country that is ranked "Number 1 place to live in" by the United Nations, alot of your fresh graduates sure enjoy working and living in America.

Europe, on the other hand, is just packed full of hypocrites and whiners. They exaggerate collateral damage, blame their mistakes on us, and frequently bash American polictics when they can't even keep their politics in a straight line.

By the way, in reference to the above last line, I noticed a majority of the anti-American posters here are from Netherlands. Must be hard to bash us now since your government is going down faster than a house of cards in a hurricane (<---A smile just like at the end of all your anti-America posts)

[CRAZY]

a country with an economy worse than Mexico's

Where do you get your facts? Canada's economy outperformed the US economey for the last year. Actually I do not have the numbers here right now but I would be happy to show them to you!!


Canada unlike the US did not really go into a recession. Canada actually created more jobs in the last quarter then the US. We have an 8th of the population by the way, and still created more jobs.

You said it right pal canada is the number 1 place to live. Imagine that from a place with an economy like Mexico! How much is your health insurance there? what about all the homless?

great ole capitalism aye? there is a reason for all the american bashing. Its not so much the people but the government. Everyone is wrong and of course you are right!!

Keep believeing it. Makes you people feel good about yourselves and that is the main thing!!

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by CRAZY
You said it right pal canada is the number 1 place to live.

Not from where I sit.

I went up to sunny Toronto for a job interview last November. I told myself I would consider it for min 100K US. As it turned out it wasnt even 100K cdn. I just about laughed in their faces. What a joke!

[CRAZY]

I know it maybe a little hard to figer out but hey!! Even some people from Canada go to the states. You can go to the US and make more money but in doing that you throw away some benifits that the US just can't provide. The US has high crime rate, no health care, bad air quality, and a huge gap between upper middle and lower class people.

In canada we have a bit more compassion for one another and look after one another a bit more then those to the south. We don't so much view the all mighty dollar as an end but a means to an end where as in the US its a bit different.

Altho if some powers that be had thier way we would be more like you guys. So I guess its all what you are looking for in life. Aside from $ the overall quality of life for canadians is higher then that in the US. That is the story!

Btw by no means is it hard to make a decent living here in Canada. There is just less extreme's is all.

[lorddread]

Oh Canada!

Originally posted by CRAZY

Canada unlike the US did not really go into a recession. Canada actually created more jobs in the last quarter then the US. We have an 8th of the population by the way, and still created more jobs.

AND?

You said it right pal canada is the number 1 place to live. Imagine that from a place with an economy like Mexico! How much is your health insurance there? what about all the homless?

How much do you pay in taxes to live in a socialist state? Because that is what the government of Canada is, a democratically elected socialist state just like Norway.

Hey if it works, go with it. But let me ask you this.... Where do the best doctors in the world train? Where do the best engineers work? The best computer programmers? The most millionares, and billionares? Where are the majority of the Fortune 500, 100 or 50 companies headquatered?


NOT CANADA!


PS: I like Canada, Toronto is one of my favorite cities in the world.


KATN

[Arrian]

Look, it comes to this: Americans, like those of us who have posted in this thread, are sick and tired of EVERY SINGLE THING our country does being criticized, exaggerated and whined about by everyone else, while hardly anyone ever mentions 1) something we've done that was good; or 2) the fact that their country hasn't acted like a saint either.

If it was a computer program, it would look like this:

(if) USA (action) or (statement) then (complain)

Of course our country screws up sometimes. Every country makes mistakes. We're a large, powerful country, so our mistakes loom larger than most. But when someone compares the 9/11 terror attacks to a nerd fighting back against a bully in a playground, well, some of us take offense.

Serb I can at least understand. He loves his country, and he feels its history has been unfairly treated by Westerners. I think he exaggerates Russia's achievements, but I at least understand his motivation. Besides, there are a lot of annoying USA#1 people around, so I can't really begrudge one Russian.

I don't mind constructive criticism, so long as it's from someone who is at least trying to be impartial. But ranting and raving about how all things American are bad is neither constructive, nor objective. Further, there is an expression about not throwing stones if you live in a glass house...

To those who operate based upon my "computer program" example above, screw you.

-Arrian

[Dauphin]

Sensationalism sells newspapers and similarly bashing America gets responses. If it didn't get a response people wouldn't do it - its an easy target. People could easily bash France, Germany, Britain, Japan, etc but they're not as "important", won't get the same size of reaction, and wouldn't stay on page 1 very long*. Accept that it happens because the US is #1.

This is not to detract from the fact that bashing for bashings sake is wrong. (I've seen forums that are very America-dominant and bash Europe more badly, ignorantly and stupidly than the reverse state on this site (check Newsmax). I understand the frustation American posters must feel.) I only ask that you understand that not all anti-American sentiment is based on the fact that bashing America is somehow fun, just that it is the subject that is most heated and hence discussed.

*I remember someone started a thread in the OT titled "Why Burkino Faso is the crappest nation on Earth!". It got about two replies and just fell to page 10 with a couple of days. It was a parody of the "Why the US is the crappiest nation on Earth!" which was about as long and heated as this one. I think it illustrates a point.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by SpencerH


Your comments and knowledge of history speak for themselves.

And what exactly do you mean by that?

[siredgar]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Coherent policies refers to concepts such as, how can America best support Israel's right to exist while having to deal with anti-israeli sentiment amongst the Arabic (Moslem) countries who supply much of our oil?

The Middle East supplies only about 10-15% of oil used in the U.S. About half of the oil we use comes from domestic sources, mainly Texas and Alaska. The rest is imported, primarily from Venezuela, Mexico, Nigeria, and yes, Canada.

On the other hand, our partners in Western Europe, Japan, and South Korea rely heavily on Middle East oil. About 30% of Western European oil imports come from the region. Even worse, Japan imports 97% of its oil needs, 80-90% of which comes from the Middle East. South Korea has similar statistics, too.

The reason why the U.S. is so interested in keeping the flow of Middle East oil steady is not so much for our own oil needs, but to help our allies. Also, like all commodities, oil has a single global price. If the oil supply to Europe, Japan, and South Korea was anyhow negatively affected, the price of oil would go up EVERYWHERE, including the U.S.

So, the Middle does not "supply much of our oil needs", but rather plays a critical factor in oil supplies to our allies and the overall global market.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by CRAZY
I know it maybe a little hard to figer out but hey!! Even some people from Canada go to the states. You can go to the US and make more money but in doing that you throw away some benifits that the US just can't provide. The US has high crime rate, no health care, bad air quality, and a huge gap between upper middle and lower class people.

In canada we have a bit more compassion for one another and look after one another a bit more then those to the south. We don't so much view the all mighty dollar as an end but a means to an end where as in the US its a bit different.

Altho if some powers that be had thier way we would be more like you guys. So I guess its all what you are looking for in life. Aside from $ the overall quality of life for canadians is higher then that in the US. That is the story!

Btw by no means is it hard to make a decent living here in Canada. There is just less extreme's is all.

But Canada is boring.

=)

Then again maybe that's why it's so boring.

=)

Toronto is the most boring place on Earth I've ever been to.

=P

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by siredgar


The Middle East supplies only about 10-15% of oil used in the U.S.

So, the Middle does not "supply much of our oil needs", but rather plays a critical factor in oil supplies to our allies and the overall global market.

I stand corrected on the oil import issue.

I was, however, simply trying to illustrate that the lack of a coherent American policy towards the middle east is not the same thing as America "pushing people around".

[Ribannah]

Re: Oh Canada!

Originally posted by lorddread
Where do the best doctors in the world train?

Australia.

Where do the best engineers work?

Everywhere in the world (they're Dutch).

The best computer programmers?

That would be The Netherlands, too.

The most millionares, and billionares?

On top of the most poor people of the western world.

Where are the majority of the Fortune 500, 100 or 50 companies headquatered?

Next to the slums.