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Japan: A Real-Life Civ Success

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  • Japan: A Real-Life Civ Success

    Just as an expansion to the idea of “real-life” Civilizations, my favorite true-to-life Civilization situation would probably be the Japanese in the 1850s. For the previous two hundred and fifty years, Japan played an isolationist posture. It went so far as to execute marooned sailors who washed up on their shores after a shipwreck. This policy served it well; Japan is probably the only Asian nation to reach the modern age without unwanted influence by the European colonial powers.

    The United States sent Commodore Perry in 1853 to negotiate with the Emperor to open up its borders to trade. The encounter resulted not only in a treaty with America, but a realization at the leadership level that Japan was technologically behind the other powers. So a new government pushed for economic and social reforms, which included the collapsing the old samurai caste system. It also sent students to Western universities to learn about their culture and technology.

    Not only did the Japanese modernize, they did so on their own terms, instead of being forced to do it by means of Western subjugation or conflict with a major power. Within a half a century it became the first non-European nation to defeat a European power in war. (Ok, it was the Russians, but still.) Now if there’s a Civilization-minded deity or spirit behind all the moves that happen in history, he (or she) was definitely at work clicking that mouse with Japan in the late 19th Century.

    Japan's human rights abuses in Asia and its record in the Second World War shouldn't detract from the story of its remarkably fast progress. Perhaps those actions and the attitudes that come along with them were simply a remnant of the previous culture that it had abandoned. In any case, Japan became a true modern nation when in the 20th Century it, albeit forcefully, abandoned its militaristic ways and became an industrial power.

    I’m glad that the official Civ 3 site made mention of the westernization of Japan in their Civ of the Week feature. In my opinion, Japan’s conversion from a feudalistic and agricultural old world country to a modern industrial power is probably the second greatest success story of the modern age. Of course, we all know which one number one would be.

  • #2
    Re: Japan: A Real-Life Civ Success

    Originally posted by IronSpam
    Within a half a century it became the first non-European nation to defeat a European power in war. (Ok, it was the Russians, but still.)
    The American colonials beat the English in the war of 1775-1783. Of course, they failed and had their maison blanche burned to the ground in the trade war of 1812

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    • #3
      Re: Re: Japan: A Real-Life Civ Success

      Originally posted by Ecthelion


      The American colonials beat the English in the war of 1775-1783. Of course, they failed and had their maison blanche burned to the ground in the trade war of 1812

      But the Americans at that point in their country's illustrious history, were hardly as non-Euro as for instance, the Japanese, the Zulus, the Vietnamese, the Afghans....

      Also, the Russo-Japanese War and success for Japan had more to do with the deficiencies of the Czarist navy, and the defeat at Tsushima might have something to do with a large part of the Russian fleet having had to sail from the Baltic to get to the Pacific theatre of operations. Oh, and then there was a certain sneak attack by the Japanese, a tactic that may be familiar to some people...but which at the time, drew praise from both the British and the Americans. Incidentally, much of the Japanese fleet was built in British shipyards.

      As for modernizing, a certain Scot, Thomas Blake Glover, awarded the Order of the Rising Sun, deserves more than a little kudos...









      Japan attacked Russia after the Russians refused to recognize Japanese interests in Korea and Manchuria. Victory gained Japanese recognition as a great power.
      Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

      ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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      • #4
        Re: Re: Japan: A Real-Life Civ Success

        Originally posted by Ecthelion
        The American colonials beat the English in the war of 1775-1783. Of course, they failed and had their maison blanche burned to the ground in the trade war of 1812
        When he said none European I think he meant none western. Yes, the Brits burned the White House but not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.
        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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        • #5
          Re: Re: Re: Japan: A Real-Life Civ Success

          Originally posted by molly bloom
          As for modernizing, a certain Scot, Thomas Blake Glover, awarded the Order of the Rising Sun, deserves more than a little kudos...
          Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we? What cheek Firaxis had to include an English civ but not a Scottish one (or even a British one). Grrr...
          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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          • #6
            well, returning to topic and not letting this thread degenerate into another I have an older penis than you so my penis must be superior,

            Japan's rise as a global power is best contrasted with China's decline.

            The whole trust of the great explorations starting from the middle of the second millenia has been to find a sea route to China and the riches of the orient. They of course founded the New World, a term coined by Amerigo Vespucci, who later had his name latinized by cartographer Martin Waldseemueller who published a map that designated the new world as America. anyways...

            Japan's rise as an Imperial power was very much due to the realization of the the elite, that the country needed to modernize. Like China, there was great resistance against change. Whereas in China the anti-reformist succeded, culmunating in the murder of a reformist Emperor, in Japan, the Shogunate was overthrown and the young Emperor Meiji re-established control over Japan and began an era of massive social, economic and technological reforms in Japan.

            As for military successes, Japan was never the best military power but it was a great military power. The Japanese were able to dominate Asia because the European powers by the early 1900s has decimated each other in World War I, and the fortresses in the far east were deteriorating from lack of funds and lack of manpower.

            One thing that should be said is that the IJN (Imperial Japanese Navy) had for a time, been the world's finest naval power, especially in the area of naval aviation with its highly trained veteran pilots who had fought in the war in China and the sheer size of its carrier fleet that dwarfed all the naval powes until World War II.
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            • #7
              Oerdin,

              Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we?


              not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.




              I am aware of your Scottish background but these statements are inconsistent.

              You want to have your cake and eat it!
              One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
                Oerdin,

                Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we?


                not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.




                I am aware of your Scottish background but these statements are inconsistent.

                You want to have your cake and eat it!
                That is what most foreigners do not understand about Americans.

                They can be proud of their heritage from whatever their ancentors came from originally but still be fiercely loyal to the idea, the institutions and the people of America.

                On the same note, most critics of Americans can't have their cake and eat it too. They criticize Americans for their flagwaving nationalism but ignore the fact that 90% of the population in America are immigrants from somewhere else on this planet.

                When they are making posts about "Remove Americans from Civ III" these same people say America doesn't deserve to be a Civilization because it "doesn't have culture"

                The former is inconsistent with the latter. But it would seem people here only seem to remember things when it suits their purposes.

                the lack of intellectual rigor is distressing.
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                • #9
                  Get real.

                  If an American says "we whipped British ass in war x", and then proceeds to claim only things that are great about Britain, it is ridiculous.

                  They must also claim the defeat, that is the British defeat, by the Americans aswell. Else it is selective nationalism.

                  the lack of intellectual rigor is distressing.


                  One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The former is inconsistent with the latter. But it would seem people here only seem to remember things when it suits their purposes


                    In terms of culture, I would complain about them too, but I hate talking to brick walls.

                    With regards the game aspect the fact that Americans are a mix of other cultures means that they are already represented by other civs. I would accept that argument as consistent even though I don't agree with it.


                    Anyway back to Japan.
                    One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
                      Get real.

                      If an American says "we whipped British ass in war x", and then proceeds to claim only things that are great about Britain, it is ridiculous.

                      They must also claim the defeat, that is the British defeat, by the Americans aswell. Else it is selective nationalism.

                      the lack of intellectual rigor is distressing.


                      His statements are not in support of the Brits, but against them. But that doesn't mean he can be proud of his scottish heritage either, something which you seem to take issue with.

                      It's not selective nationalism. I'm not even sure you understood his posts. Go back and re-read what Oerdin posted.

                      post # 1
                      When he said none European I think he meant none western. Yes, the Brits burned the White House but not before we sacked several of the largest cities in British North America. Plus we stopped them butt cold in the Carolinas and humilated them in Lousiana.
                      post #2
                      Ahh yes, we Scots do keep popping up don't we? What cheek Firaxis had to include an English civ but not a Scottish one (or even a British one). Grrr...
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                      Strategy:The Machiavellian Doctrine
                      Visit my WebsiteMonkey Dew

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                      • #12
                        His statements are not in support of the Brits, but against them


                        Thats my point. He is against Brits and then claims part of British heritage namely the actions of "a Scot, Thomas Blake Glover, awarded the Order of the Rising Sun". I am merely saying that its not a pick and mix.

                        something which you seem to take issue with.


                        He can claim Scottish heritage, but surely it has to be taken as a whole, including being "stopped butt cold in the the Carolinas" and "humilated in Lousiana". Is that not also part of Scottish history?
                        One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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                        • #13
                          Actually, the Afghans beat the English twice in the period 1850-1870.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin

                            Thats my point. He is against Brits and then claims part of British heritage namely the actions of "a Scot, Thomas Blake Glover, awarded the Order of the Rising Sun". I am merely saying that its not a pick and mix.
                            And similarly, my point stands. Most Americans and Canadians do feel proud of their heritage. I have a friend who is of Scottish descent, he's proud of it, he's got pictures of his grandparents back in the old country, but he's also a fierce Canadian nationalist. I myself is a first generation immigrant, and I will tell you I consider my mother country a foreign country, because my loyalties are with my new county although I still keep many of the traditions and folklore of the old.

                            what makes North America such a diverse place, despite the old misconception of it having no culture, is when vastly different cultures merge and collide, a new synthesis is formed. I see it everyday. We have a large and growing Asian population here, probably the largest outside South East Asia, and what we add to the grand scheme of things is only now being felt. It's certainly more than the Zen craze of the hippie era, its what Academics called Techno-Orientalism. The vision of a highly advanced society, living in perfect harmony with technology.

                            I don't want to sound condescending, but if you're not in North America, where the immirgrant tradition is strong, because everyone who lives here are practically immigrants, or descendants of immagrints, and people find having strong feelings for the mother country and its heritage is perfectly consistent with nationalistic feelings for Canada or the United States, then you probably don't get it. Leave the matter at that.
                            Last edited by dexters; December 17, 2001, 02:04.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dexters
                              I don't want to sound condescending, but if you're not in North America, where the immirgrant tradition is strong, because everyone who lives here are practically immigrants, or descendants of immagrints, and people find having strong feelings for the mother country and its heritage is perfectly consistent with nationalistic feelings for Canada or the United States, then you probably don't get it. Leave the matter at that.
                              Just so you know, I lived in Japan until I was four then I lived in Connecticut until the age of 11 (I am now 22). I have also been to all but 12 US States. In the past seven years I have visited the US on 12 (3 week+ vacations/trips) from San Diego to Boston, Seattle to Key West. I currently live near London, England.

                              I still feel that national history and heritage that a person should rememember include wars that that nation has fought.
                              One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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