Abraham Lincoln, or George Washington?

[mrbilll]

With a tip of the hat to other posts/polls like this, d'ya like Abraham Lincoln, or would you rather have seen George Washington as the American leader?

Lincoln was great, but it really was Washington that we owe more to as a nation. He was crucial, not only in war, but in setting up the style of the government that exists to this day. He could easily have been king, general, or El Presidente (dictator) of the U.S., but he turned such opportunities aside on numerous occasions. What he didn't do sets the example as much as what he did.

[Jahi]

washington rocked but without lincoln and his policy of no vengance unification there be two united states today..

god bless great leaders when there is a need for them.

[Footie Mad]

Where is Clinton? My vote went to Washington.

[Jason Beaudoin]

I would be every cent that I have that Firaxis purposely didn't pick anyone before Lincoln's presidency because of the popular ones owned slaves (i.e.: Jefferson, Washington).

It would leave them open to political attack of Firaxis had chosen Washington.

[Yoleus]

IMHO (I am European) what makes America is not the abolition of slavery, but the independence from England and the republican constitution. AFAIK, even after abolition the southern states kept separatistic policies (M.L. King, anyone?).
Again IMHO, US are NOT make by equality (some in US are more equal than others... defined by what minority you belong to), but by independence and presidentialism (US is the only country in the planet -uhm, maybe along with UK- that I could not imagine with a different government Cultural stubbornness?? )
Even if there had been a secession, sooner or later the south would have fallen in the power sphere of the north, like the rest of the continent. It is just a matter of economical, industrial and commercial might. So IMHO again, the secession war was hopeless (and meaningless) in the very beginning. It just showed that power lies north.
On the other hand, independence was a new, daring, uncertain event which truly shaped history. And it's up to Washie to have given it a leader.

[mrbilll]

It's been said that a "short, decisive war" is one of the most dangerous fantasies a society can indulge in. The U.S. civil war, and the English one, for that matter, are great examples. North and South alike, they were convinced they'd whip the other side in the morning, and have a picnic in the afternoon. If they'd known what was ahead, surely they'd have reconsidered. Only a fool would not.

I don't want to take from Abe, though. His contributions were solid. It's just that George's influence on the U.S. is almost incalculable, more than two centuries later.

BTW, is the quote about the ice from the Rime of the Ancient Mariner? It has that kind of ring to it.

[CB2034]

I would vote for Magnum PI if he was available.

[PapaLenin]

GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH GEORGE.W BUSH

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by mrbilll
BTW, is the quote about the ice from the Rime of the Ancient Mariner? It has that kind of ring to it.

It should be = if I remembered well

[Ford Prefect]

IMHO, Americans shouldn't be in game at all. I mean, this game starts in 4000BC, and when Americans became nation? 17th century at best. Iroquis are ok, but I think they should put another European great civ (Spain, Portugal, Serbia, Vikings), or Asian, or maybe Australian (Aborigines... why not?). Still, my vote went to Washington... he's a founder of usa.

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by PapaLenin
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Oh, so splendid! A delicate and intelligently argued post, it fits so well

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
IMHO, Americans shouldn't be in game at all. I mean, this game starts in 4000BC, and when Americans became nation? 17th century at best. Iroquis are ok, but I think they should put another European great civ (Spain, Portugal, Serbia, Vikings), or Asian, or maybe Australian (Aborigines... why not?). Still, my vote went to Washington... he's a founder of usa.

They MADE the game. You can rant, they can ignore you

[nato]

Yoleus - Youre right the secession was hopeless, but they sure did not think so at the time. All in all they came pretty close. Really I feel they should have been allowed to leave if they wanted to ... but that would have prolonged slavery probably.

I have to say don't underestimate equality ... I definitely care much much more about that than the President, any of whom I would drop like a bag of rocks if he tried to opress minorities. I would happily drop the whole system if for some reason it prevented equality.

Ford Prefect - You have a point, even I feel we are a little too young. Americans feel fine late game, but in the early game they seem a little silly.

As to the thread, I vote Washington! I love Lincoln, but Washington is to me more the biggest figure for the U.S. He could have probably made himself king if he wanted to ... but he didn't.

[d_dudy]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
IMHO, Americans shouldn't be in game at all. I mean, this game starts in 4000BC, and when Americans became nation? 17th century at best.

anyway, historians usually put lincoln at #1 because of the stresses caused by the civil war and i gotta agree. besides, with washington as a great leader he's still in. lincoln couldn't be a great military leader

[Kyle]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
IMHO, Americans shouldn't be in game at all. I mean, this game starts in 4000BC, and when Americans became nation? 17th century at best. Iroquis are ok, but I think they should put another European great civ (Spain, Portugal, Serbia, Vikings), or Asian, or maybe Australian (Aborigines... why not?). Still, my vote went to Washington... he's a founder of usa.

That would've went over real well. Using your criteria, the vast majority of the Civs wouldn't even be included in the game.