Who should be the Leader of the French

[Dwarf Lord]

Hi,

I think this discussion is very interesting, so I decided to state my opinion as well. Firstly, I have to say that I agree with the thread starter on Joan of Arc being not the best choice. She simply never actually ruled France, so I consider her to be not that fitting.

Here is why I didn't vote for Charlemange, who definetly was a great leader:
Charlemange's, ("Karl der Große" in German, btw.) came from France, but at his time, France didn't actually exist as the nation "France", his nation was one which united today's France and Germany. Remembering this fact, we can easily recognize that this would cause a kind of "interference" with Germany. How can there be a Germany in Civ, if Charlemagne rules it? And then, don't forget that Germany wasn't "established", even before he occupied it.

Next one is Charles DeGaulle, who is amired by the most people in France, but is, in my opinion,being overestimated and not comparable to Napoleon or Louis XIV.
And then there are Napoleon I (you should add the number, just to avoid a possible, though unlikely, misunderstanding!) and Louis XIV.
The one I like most is Napoleon I, simply because I think he was the real genious. His triumph as a military leader was impressive, I think it is needless to say that he was one of the best military leaders in history. Besides that, he also made numerous reforms and ruled the state very well.
Louis XIV also was an important person in history, as he ruled the state decently and made France very powerful.
However, my vote is Napoleon, I think he is the greatest of the french kings/emperors/leaders.

In 1806, Germany was resolved as a consequence of Napoleon the first's military success, so there was no Germany, like with Charlemagne. Thefore, we could define Civ's Napoleon I as the one before 1806, thus avoiding another interference. The leaders in civ don't age anyway (they wouldn't survive the thousands's of years otherwise, would they?) so I think that would be ok.

Of course, there were lots of other great leaders in France, but I think the poll options were chosen well, since persons like Richelieu just aren't of that great significance. (they were important, no doubt, but can they be compared to Napoleon I or Louis XIV ? - I don't think so.)

Dwarf Lord

[GePap]

The Sun King!

First of all, just because one is well known is not the sole reason to make leader.

Second, when thinking about a leader for a civ, one needs to look at the history carefully.
Charlemagne was a great leader,no doubt, of the Franks- who are not by default French. Why do you think the Germans claim him too? He existed far too early to be a good leader (it would be like making the pilgrim leadership America's leaders)
Joan is the patron saint, but remember who burned her? The French allies of the English, who had a big interest in keeping the King weak. Also, it terms of achievements, she won one major battle, that's it. Being made a saint is a sentimental thing, based on what people beleived afterwards, not effective rulership.
Napoleon-he was a Corsican who hijacked the revolution and ruled for only 17 years at most. The French love him for the glory he brought but long-term, his most important achievement was his code, which was based on the work of others.
De Gaulle is too recent by far- it would be like making LBJ or Nixon leader of the Americans. Besides the current constitution of the fifth republic (yesm they are on number 5) he did little for France as a culture

Louis XIV on the other hand, the Sun King, built modern, unifed france. He finished Richealui (misspelled) and Mazarin's centralizing attempts and made the King and Paris the true center of France. He built versailles, had the Bourbons installed in Spain and made France the unquestioned land-power of Europe. The Golden Age of France as a true unified france was under him. So besides liking military leaders disproportionally or looking for popularity contests, both of which are shallow reaons for picking really, can anyone give a good counter argument for the SUN KING?

[Blaupanzer]

I voted for Napoleon I, the greatest contrarian ruler in history. Against the inevitable migration of economic power and influence away from the "center," stood France. Only a leader in politics, law, and military art could possibly have led them successfully. That was Napoleon. He held out for nearly 20 years against the full weight of history. Most amazing. As to influence on the direction of French history, the only competitor to Napoleon is Charlemagne.

However, in terms of the game, he, Charlemagne, and Joan would serve better as leaders that emerge from combat. Louis IV would not serve that role logically. So, IF leaders weren't so rare, it might be acceptable for Louis XIV to be ruler and the other three to be leaders.

[Jaybe]

I haven't checked yet, but are all the non-Joan names in the list of French Great Leaders??

Remember, Joan is just the figurehead. The really great (or humbled) are either the Great Leaders or the player!

[Sun Zi 36]

"I said he LOOKS like a French Hitler, you foo'. Read my post!"

i knew that. i wrote with the knowledge of that in mind.

Actually, I think Napoleon I is much more well known and suited to be reflected in his military genius then anything else. While Louis XIV was well known for actually being king. So maybe Louis XIV is a better choice. Joan and Napoleon should be military leaders.

[Jason]

My choices, in order of preference:

1. Mazarin
2. Richelieu
3. Louis XIV
4. Napoleon

I like Mazarin, although he's not as famous as Richelieu. Louis and Napoleon were both the really big show.

They could do worse than Joan of Arc, but the gender-bend doesn't appeal to me much.

And another thing, they say "Joan d'Arc," that's idiotic. French last name but anglicized first name? It's Jeanne d'Arc or Joan of Arc, not half and half.

[d_dudy]

was napolean really that great? i mean militarily, he was very good. but national policy? if he wouldn't have gotten into so many wars maybe france would have been better off for it?

[History Guy]

Charlemange should be of course, but it's kinda late now. Napoleon wasn't even Fro...errrr....French, he was a Corsican, which turned alot of Froglets, whoops, I mean French against him. I would just stick with Joan. She's the only nice looking leader in the whole game.

[History Guy]

I also found it quite ridiculous that the French are made to be such cowards in Civ3. They were for much of their history a bunch of bombastic imperialist snobs (take the period of the Hundred Years War up to Napoleon III). I personally applaud the English in the Hundred Years War, as the French were fairly sissified in that war, even the Dauphin that Joan (God bless her) stuck in was a big fat dumb nothing. Napoleon was something of a coward himself, and a bit neurotic, and Napoleon III just wanted to emulate his uncle and did a fine job of it too. ;

[molly bloom]

I plump for Talleyrand, the great survivor, in first place. Then Henri IV, because his personality appeals to me.
In third place, Charles De Gaulle, one of the originators of Blitzkrieg warfare theory, as much as I find his orgueil rather tedious. Charles Martel number 4, and Coligny number 5.

[History Guy]

Coligny? The Admiral who was murdered in the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre? That wouldn't be a good choice, actually.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by History Guy
Coligny? The Admiral who was murdered in the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre? That wouldn't be a good choice, actually.

Uhh...why? Because he was a Huguenot? I'm talking about his political and military capabilities:

https://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/02920.html

school.discovery.com/homeworkhelp/worldbook/atozhistory/c/722759.html

huguenot.netnation.com/store/StampCardFull.htm

[Frog_Gamer]

I voted for Napoleon because for a frenchmen he represents the 'leader' concept more than all other stated.

Jeanne was not a ruler, so the original choice by FireAxis is to my view completely wrong.

Yes we can argue between Charles de Gaulle, Louis xiv and Napoleon. Why not let the french decide?

BTW living in Sydney is really fun, although rotten weather!!!


The Frog

[wervdon]

I voted Louis because his reign represents the golden age of france.

Napolean would be a good choice too if you wanted to make France a bit more bloodthirsty at the same time

[Jason]

Napoleon "If there is any among you who would kill his Emperor, let him fire" Bonaparte a coward? I... seee

Ok, so it probobly didn't happen like that, but he most definately was not a cowardly leader. If he had problems with bravery they lay in the other direction, I'd say.

Sissified? Is that a historically valid judgement? Seems rather like the German and English traditional historical bias there... The sissy Frenchmen who everyone imitated, heh.

In Louis' time we're talking about a France so powerful her fleet had orders to fire on any foreign ship that didn't salute her first (give national precedence.) Despite the effectiveness of the coallitions against him in his later years, Louis was taking on pretty much all of Europe except for Bavaria and his *****ified Spain.

All imperial states tended to be snobs, that's just the way things are. I've gotten over my commonwealth bias and I rather like the French in the period of their ascendancy. Richelieu, Mazarin, Louis XIV and Napoleon were masterful and bold.

Napoleon III on the other hand was a goober politician, how'd he get on the list? Heh.