Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack: Zulu

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Ribannah
But I didn't say that Boer = Dutch, I said Boer <= Dutch.

Exactly! And therefore, as the most powerful civ in southern Africa (maybe second to the unknown builders of Great Zimbabwe though), they being in instead of the Zulu, isn't a problem.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Ribannah
I would not be surprised if people of the Shona, Lemba and Swahili tribes were all part of Great Zimbabwe, as it was quite strategically located. Similar things happened elsewhere. I just read about Lake Titicaca, also a prime area, where people of three different tribes became part of one civilization.
This could explain why there are no 'descendents' (although at Lake Titicaca there were: the Incas).

Good point, very interesting hypothesis. That could very well be the case.

Originally posted by Gangerolf
Exactly! And therefore, as the most powerful civ in southern Africa (maybe second to the unknown builders of Great Zimbabwe though), they being in instead of the Zulu, isn't a problem.

LOL, the Boers the most powerful civilization in southern Africa? I think you're underestimating the influence of the Swahili Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Kongo, the Luba-Lunda states and the Zimbabwean empires (the one that built the Great Zimbabwe was only one of several empires that centered on what is now Zimbabwe) here.

[Gangerolf]

LOL, the Boers the most powerful civilization in southern Africa? I think you're underestimating the influence of the Swahili Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Kongo, the Luba-Lunda states and the Zimbabwean empires (the one that built the Great Zimbabwe was only one of several empires that centered on what is now Zimbabwe) here.

I don't doubt these were powerful kingdoms. But Africa is big, and Transvaal is far from Kongo and Tanzania, so we can easily make space for both the Boers, the Swahili and perhaps the Kongo. My point is that it is more correct to include the Boers than the Zulus.

[Locutus]

Actually, while the most important centers of the the Swahili Kingdoms were located in Tanzania, their empire stretched along the entire African east coast, it pretty much bordered Transvaal in the south. Kongo's influence extended deep into Angola and the influence of some of the Rhodesian Plane civs even reached deep into South Africa (IIRC Natal is actually Shona in origin). Though I'd love to have all these and more African civs in Civ3, there are only 31 slots available so more than 4 African civs would be too much. Egypt, Ethiopia and Mali were IMHO far more important than the Boers. If there would be room for a 4th African civ (and I'm afraid there's not), I would select any of the aforementioned examples over the Boers (though I would indeed chose the Boers over the Zulu).

[History Guy]

Kingdom of Benin

Well, personally I'd be just as pleased with the Zulu, as I think they probably were (next to the Kingdom of Benin) the most important South African tribe around. But I must also say that another good one would be the Kingdom of Benin, which was strongest in Nigeria between AD 1450 and 1850. Benin was the capital, and the army conquered a nice chunk of South Africa in their time, and made a bunch of cultural advancements too. Eventually the Portugese took over, but for a time Benin was the top banana of South Africa. They even had a great leader-- Oba.

[Locutus]

The Zulu might have been one of the mayor tribes in what is now the country of South Africa, in Africa as a whole they were merely a tiny blimp on the map. From http://minotaur.marques.co.za/clients/zulu/indexorg.htm:

Under their famous chief, Shaka, they became the rulers of KwaZulu-Natal from the Tugela River in the south to the border of Mozambique in the north

So at its height, the Zulu empire was roughly the size of present-day Austria (the Tugela flows near Durban), maybe slightly larger. Impressive for such a fairly primitive tribe but we're looking for civilizations here, not primitive tribes. Zimbabwe, Swahili, Kongo, the Lunda-Luba states, all are civs from southern Africa (roughly Africa south of the river Congo) that covered a vastly greater territory. Most, if not all, of these actually lived in large cities, had some form of writing, had a large trade network, built great monuments, etc. The Zulu had/did none of these things. The Zulu as a civilization are a total joke, so many other African civs qualify much more.

Benin, although from West Africa (Southern Africa doesn't mean 'everything south of the Sahara', you know), was one of these civilizations that was indeed far superior to the Zulu. It was indeed a mayor empire in present-day Nigeria, I would definitely put it in my top 10 of most important African civs, but it can't really measure up against Mali, Ethiopia, Egypt. Personally I would roughly put them on the same level as the Swahili kingdoms or Zimbabwe (but in this case I would favour Zimbabwe as it's further to the south and thus has more room to expand on a world map scenario).

Edit: BTW, where I put 'Nigeria' as example for 'other African civs' in the poll, I should have put 'Benin' of course, that is the more appropriate name for that civ.

[Locutus]

One last bump before this thread falls off the first page... Unless the outcome of this poll changes radically over the next few days, it has been decided that the Zulus will be replaced by the Ethiopians (less than 20% of the voters want to keep the Zulu, Ethiopia is by far the most popular replacement). Now is the time to act if you object...