Apolyton ExtraCivs Pack: Iroquois

[Locutus]

Contents: Read my first post in this thread for an elaborate introduction: if we make an Apolyton Pack for Civs, should we change the existing Iroquois civ in any way? (At the risk of overstating the obvious, if you want the Sioux to be used instead of the Iroquois, you should vote for #3, not #4)

Edit: Anyone dizzy yet? Let's see how long we'll stay here this time

[Locutus]

Damn, AdaMada just beat me to it. Thanks for doing that anyway, AdaMada. Everyone please use his thread. Markos/Ming, please close this one...

[MarkG]

actually, i already closed the other one

[Locutus]

D'oh!

Okay, Markos, your wish is our command (not like we have any choice )...

[Trachmir]

I voted "other", but I want them left in or replaced by another Native American tribe from that region... we should have at least 4 native americans, 2 for north america and 2 for central/south america. Thus Inca/Aztec/Apache(or Sioux)/Iroquois(or cherokee).

[LoD]

I voted for the collective Native American option, since I feel the Americans need to have a counterweight on the Earth map. Otherwise, I don't consider any of the Northern Indians to be siginificant enough to stand out as a single civ - alright, this may be unpopular among all of you PC folks (not portable computer ), but just think about it. On the other hand, their collective heritage deserves to be represented.

[Locutus]

I agree LoD, Native Americans somehow need to be represented but none of the tribes (including the Iroquois) was really significant enough to deserve a place on its own merits (sorry Ribannah, just IMNSHO ). But personally I think putting in a generic 'Native American' civ is just plain silly (ever heard of the Native European or Native Asian civ?), so I voted for keeping the Iroquois myself. I also think it should actually be an Iroquois civ, so it's UU, leader, city names and generals should IMHO all be actually Iroquois. As it stands, it would appear that the Iroquois are just 'Native Americans in disguise'...

[Ribannah]

The Iroquois - not just the League, but all Iroquois - counted 20% of all native Americans north of Mexico after European diseases reduced the total Amerind numbers there from 15 million to 500,000.
In their Golden Age they ruled a big part of the region, controlling almost all the trade with the Europeans. The League in particular also had vassal tribes that
payed tribute to them, such as the Delawares, and were the spokespeople for many of their neighbours in dealings with the colonialists. No enemy, including the Sioux and (on and off) the French, could withstand them.
In addition, the Iroquois gave mankind much agricultural and social knowledge.
I'd say this is plenty significant if you compare them to, for instance, the Algonquins or the Cherokees, or other civ3 tribes as the Persians or Egyptians.

[Wulfram]

Persians? Are you serious? The Persians were one of the most important civilizations in history, having the greatest empire in the world until Alexander came along, and when they absorbed those greeks into their culture they came back and were the roman empire strongest and most persistant enemies.

The Egyptians were important just because they were a civilization when most of the world wasn't.

On Topic, I agree with Trachmir.

[Ribannah]

If you delete the uninhabitable parts of the deserts, the Persian and Iroquois empires were of about the same size at their respective peaks. But I would like to include more tribes in the Americas, too.

[Wulfram]

Originally posted by Ribannah
If you delete the uninhabitable parts of the deserts, the Persian and Iroquois empires were of about the same size at their respective peaks. But I would like to include more tribes in the Americas, too.

I doubt it, though as my knowledge of the Iroquois is lacking I'm open to argument. Also remember that the persian empire included some of the greatest cities of it's time such as Babylon, Persepolis and Tyre

Here's the Persian Empire

[Locutus]

Ribannah,
As much territory as the Iroquois may have ruled over, the technological level and the impact that a a civilization had on the world at large should also be taken into account when you rank civs. In this area the Iroquois, although certainly not insignificant, are IMHO inferior to the other civs from the top 32 (excluding Zulus of course and maybe the Hebrew). It's true that at least some people on this forum seem to underestimate the importance of the Iroquois but I'm not sure if I'd place them in the top 32 of most important civilizations in human history either (they should still be in Cvi3 IMHO but only for 'political' reasons).

[Trifna]

Native Americans were divided in two: Iroquois and Algonquiens. They both include loooots of tribes (Sious is one of them).

Iroquois and Algonquiens are VERY different, opposite on many aspects. One was constantly at war, other trying to be peaceful. One was patriarcal, opposit for other. Etc, etc.

For the Eskimo/Inuits and other that were named, they are part of Algonquiens.

By the way, I'M the guy who voted Algonquiens

[Trifna]

Originally posted by Locutus
Ribannah,
As much territory as the Iroquois may have ruled over, the technological level and the impact that a a civilization had on the world at large should also be taken into account when you rank civs. In this area the Iroquois, although certainly not insignificant, are IMHO inferior to the other civs from the top 32 (excluding Zulus of course and maybe the Hebrew). It's true that at least some people on this forum seem to underestimate the importance of the Iroquois but I'm not sure if I'd place them in the top 32 of most important civilizations in human history either (they should still be in Cvi3 IMHO but only for 'political' reasons).

Locutus, I think that other tribes stil are included because of culture... I mean culturally covered by Iroquois. No?.......

[Ribannah]

Wulfram: Yes, that's the same map I found.
Here is a description of Iroquois territory:

http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html

The original homeland of the Iroquois was in upstate New York between the Adirondack Mountains and Niagara Falls. Through conquest and migration, they gained control of most of the northeastern United States and eastern Canada. At its maximum in 1680, their empire extended west from the north shore of Chesapeake Bay through Kentucky to the junction of the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers; then north following the Illinois River to the south end of Lake Michigan; east across all of lower Michigan, southern Ontario and adjacent parts of southwestern Quebec; and finally south through northern New England west of the Connecticut River through the Hudson and upper Delaware Valleys across Pennsylvania back to the Chesapeake. With two exceptions - the Mingo occupation of the upper Ohio Valley and the Caughnawaga migration to the upper St. Lawrence - the Iroquois did not, for the most part, physically occupy this vast area but remained in their upstate New York villages.

This is all prime land for agriculture and/or hunting.
While the Iroquois did not build cities like Persepolis, they did have gardens.

Originally posted by Locutus
As much territory as the Iroquois may have ruled over, the technological level and the impact that a a civilization had on the world at large should also be taken into account when you rank civs. In this area the Iroquois, although certainly not insignificant, are IMHO inferior to the other civs from the top 32 (excluding Zulus of course and maybe the Hebrew). It's true that at least some people on this forum seem to underestimate the importance of the Iroquois but I'm not sure if I'd place them in the top 32 of most important civilizations in human history either (they should still be in Cvi3 IMHO but only for 'political' reasons).

I would rather say that technology is more important than size. However, in my opinion we should not compare the (static) knowledge of civs, but what new things they added. Some of these 32 may have started on a high enough level, but never discovered anything of importance.

The Iroquois gave human civilization important agricultural and social knowledge.
For instance, after contact with the Iroquois, the Dutch started to plant more
than one crop on a given field (although they used rotation rather than the Three Sisters system) instead of the old way of leaving fields fallow. This allowed them to have a merchant class of 25% of their total population, while their competitors had 95% of their people working in agriculture, and made the Dutch the wealthiest civilization in the world for more than a century, until their rivals finally grasped the concept. Human civilization would not be where it is now, had we not learned this new technique.