APOLYTON EXTRACIVS PACK.

[G(R)EEK]

Signa,

You are sadly mistaken. You claim to be an avid Military Historian, but you are dead wrong to assume that:

Greeks are different from Byzantines. Or that Macedonians are different than Greeks.

Let's set the record straight once and for all!

Macedonia was one of the Many Ancient Greek Kingdoms. As Northern Greeks they were in hostilities with the Southern Greeks (and that continues to this very day! even on soccer level), and as hostilities grew, the Southern Greeks (whom you know as Athens, Sparta, Thebes) well, just named the Northern ones "Barbarians" or "Ungreek". Well that tradition also carries to the present day, where the Southerns call Northerns well... names.

If you research some History you will find this out for yourself. The fact that there is a "Macedonia" on Greece's Northern frontiers is a ridicule of history. Modern day "Macedonians" are Slavs that descented on the Balkan Peninsula 1000 years post Alexander the Great, and are just trying to steal some light off the greatest western Conqueror. To call someone a Macedonian is the same as calling someone a NYorker. He is an American coming from NY. A Macedonian is someone coming from Macedonia, Greece.

As for Byzantines, well they are the "MIDDLE AGES' GREEKS" for TOO MANY reasons to count. You could find them all if you did bother to check ANY reference available to you. If you don't, please post the links that formulated your opinion. I am very interested to find out why/how such a distrotion of truth took place.

As for the other civs you mention they are fine. I just hope you took more time with them than you did with the Greeks, Ancient, Middle Ages and Modern, such as myself.

Thanks for your time,
Kostis Papadopoulos, A Greek.

[Rosacrux]

Yet another pile of crap...

Signa, you really deserve the prize for the most unhistorical history buff I have ever heard of. Military historian? No ****, yeah, as much as I am an astronaut, you are any kind of historian (not even an amateur).
G(R)EEK has right all the way and so does Ribanah and I am quite surprised no other people have stepped forward to ridicule your civilization "analysis"... gosh, where did you get those "facts" (!!!) from, they suck from head to toes...

OK, I shall leave the respective countrypeople (or admirers) of the others civs you molested (or just made fun of to teare off your statements, and I'll join the former poster into the defense of Greece and Macedonia.

Originally posted by Signa
Greeks
Alexander: Hoplite: Co/Sc: Athens
The Hoplite ties with the Legionairy for "Most Historical UU" and is perfect for the domestically oriented player, considering you are basically immune to assault till Knights exist. The traits are good, if not great. Alexander for the leader might or might not be good, add in that he was Macedonian. Percilus or King Leonidus each would be good. Probaly Percilus due to his peaceful nature.

OK, the fallacies listed: First the names. You probably never heard of them, but the two leaders you mention were not Roman, so their names shouldn't end with an "-us". They were Greek. And, unless your facts come from Xena or Hercules, their respective names are Pericles and Leonidas. And... Pericles of peaceful nature? Yeah right... he didn't started the Peloponesian war... oh, he did? Shame!

Secondary, even an idiot as you should know that Macedonia was a Greek kingdom with a large Greek population (the actual Macedonian people, the largest portion of the people of the kingdom, were of Dorian ancestry... you are familiar with the term? Dorian? One of the Greek tribes... the same the Spartans derive from) and some "barbaric" minorities (Molloses, Thraces, Illyrians and others).

Macedonian people spoke the Greek language, used Greek currency, their art is of the fine Greek tradition and they were accepted into the Olympics - a honor reserved only for the Greeks back then.

Need more facts? Check a history book - todays "Macedonian" (bah!) are of slav-bulgaric mixture, and if you are really a "military historian" you should know that slavs migrated into the balkans after the 4th century AD and Bulgarians (of Altaic origin the latter) even later.


btw I cannot resist to point out the obvious ignorance presented by you clearly, by altering allmost every name to your liking. Let's see:

Your Hammubri is Hammurabi.
Your Iriquois is Iroquois
Your... Khmerians (good lord!) is Khmer
Your Incans is Inca
Your Celtic is Celts
Your Carthagians is Carthagenians
Your Phoecian (ROFL) is Phoenician
Your Cataract (HAHAHAHA) is Cataphract
Your Justantin is Justinian
Your Sejicks is Seljucks
Your Samauri must be Samurai
Your Hiawathia should be Hiawatha\
Your Ramases is Rameses
Your Kufu is Khufu (Heops for the western)

... and the list goes on, I am really too tired to include all your blunters here... listen, frankly, I think you should get another hobby. History needs some accuracy...

[Q Classic]

i just don't understand...

Aksumites
Aztecs
Byzantines
Carthagians
Celtics
Hebrews
Incas
Iriquios
Khmerians
Macedonians
Mayans
Mongols
Sioux
Vikings
Zulus

what did these people do that the Koreans didn't?

Koreans look good, Polynesia, Maori, Aborigonal, and maybe even Atlantian

why are the Koreans on the level with Polynesia, Maori, and Aboriginies? what didn't the Koreans do here? aside from getting a good PR department, which is why apparently NOBODY knows ANYTHING about korean history...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25219

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33965

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38340

it's as simple as that. koreans were just as advanced, if not more advanced, than any of the civilizations above in the column; and quite definitely more advanced than those in the other quote.
culturally, scientifically, and politically...

and look, Atlanta's no longer a southern city. just because atlanta has Ted Turner and Jeff Foxworthy, it's not a hicktown. it's one vast urban agglomeration (NOT a real city) that yankee carpetbaggers end up in because they like the weather and want large, expansive yards while still pretending to live in a city (which Atlanta isn't). Atlanta's quite cosmopolitan these days... unfortunately, driving in any direction outside of the atlanta suburbs spits you right back into south georgia. thing is... no atlantan really thinks he or she's georgian these days.

boy, do i love chicago, but boy, does it irritate me when people assume that atlanta's filled with hicks.

[Signa]

*sighs*

Well that the problem. You can't even post ideas. I'm not here for historical accuracy, its all just dumb ideas. Well, I'm sticking to the Story forum from now on.

[squeeze truck]

Originally posted by Q Cubed
i just don't understand...



what did these people do that the Koreans didn't?



why are the Koreans on the level with Polynesia, Maori, and Aboriginies? what didn't the Koreans do here? aside from getting a good PR department, which is why apparently NOBODY knows ANYTHING about korean history...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25219

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33965

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38340

it's as simple as that. koreans were just as advanced, if not more advanced, than any of the civilizations above in the column; and quite definitely more advanced than those in the other quote.
culturally, scientifically, and politically...

What's your hangup about the Koreans? I don't think anybody said the Koreans were culturally inferior.

I know plenty about Korean history. If you know your Korean history past before 500 AD, you know that the Japanese and Koreans were essentially the same ethnic group. The same group as the the Mongols and Manchus.

To me at least, this is enough to justify having only ONE of them (Japan or Korea) represent both countries in a game.
So if its a question of adding another far-Eastern Altaic country like Korea, or adding a civ to represent a cultural and linguistic group that is not in the game at all (like the Austronesians,) I say be a good sport and give the Austronesians their one civ.

[squeeze truck]

Originally posted by Graeme the mad
I really think that the vikings should be replaced by the norweigans or something - it's sort of like having bolsheviks for russia (not a perfect analogy but you get the idea) - the SU can be the longboat though

I badly think a civ has been overlooked that is very important - Austria-hungary/ the hapsburgs. They were one of the major powers in Europe for about 900 years and the top power in Europe for a large time. I suggest taking the Khmer out and replacing them with the Austro-Hungarian, no suggestion on what the SU should be.
I know its late in the day but seriously consider this would you, just look at European history Austro-Hungary was very powerful and influential

To paraphrase the great English historian Eddie Izzard: "The Ausria-Hungarian empire, famous for F*CK ALL! All they did was slowly collapse like a flan in a cupboard.

Seriously, don't we need Huns before we can have Hungarians?

[macaskil]

Austria-Hungary

In military terms the comment is fair, although the Austrians (with help) stopped the Turks. 1866 (defeat by Prussia) was the beginning of the final collapse.

However for CULTURE the Austrians deserve a place

- Vienna - a beautiful city. Prague and Budapest as well (both were in the Austrian empire until 1918)

- Music. Mozart! enough said.

- Science. Mendel, Freud.

Unfortunately the Austrians also produced Hitler. However from the civ3 point of view this is an argument in favour, since despite his appalling views and methods undoubtedly is one of the greatest politial/military leaders in history. An untalented, unwashed, unemployed, homeless, friendless, lazy drifter in 1918 to ruling Europe in 1941.

[sargon2]

What language do u think did and do the Austrians speak. Its German. Though they got their own Country these days, do they not belong to Germany but to the German Civilization - I guess even an Austrian could accept this. And Civ is what we all mean.
Its about the same point like Macedonians and Greeks. Prussia and Austria were the most powerful Countries of the german middle-age and early modern time - until Prussia and tens of other little german states created the German Empire (1871). The Austrians got a place offered but they had must give up their Slav country-parts. 1918 they lost them and did want to join with Germany but that had made it to powerful so it got forbidden by the victory-powers of WWI.

The fundamental problem of this debate is that national countries, countries that are ethnically limited on one nation (culture, language, sometimes religion and so on), just Nationalism in its neutal meaning, started not until 1789 when the French people kicked of their king.
All countries before didn't define themselves on a people (exceptions confirme the rule) but on a Leader.
That means that many old empires are part of the history of more than one Nation.

Adding to the spelling problems of some posts. Its not easy to know espacially the original names in history in Englisch. We not-native-speaker learn these names in our language.
But we are no less experts in History

[Olle Wiman]

Re: Civilizations Opinion

Originally posted by Signa
I'm a avide militarly historian and would like to add a dozen or so civilizations that I think should be in...

--snip

Arabs
Saladin: Camel Warrior: Re/Co: Mecca
Representing the origonal Arabs, Sejicks, and Ottomans. Saladin sounds good for a leader. Religious off of their Islamic faith and Commerical if you know Muslim culture.

--snip

30 in all...

I am not a military historian, But I know for sure that
Saladdin was NOT, repeat NOT Arabic. He was a Kurd.
You know, the Indo-European people living in e.g. East
Turkey and Northen Iraq. Better chose one is Abu Bakr
or one of the kaliphs, Harun-al-Rashid for example.

And, the Macedonians were a hellenic triebe. To separate
them from the rest of the hellenes means You have to
have at least a dozen of Hellenic triebes. All Greek civ,
interesting idea for a scenario, but not in an
"international" CivIII. Or ???

O.W.

[Signa]

Well...

Everyone, i am very sorry that I am a terrible speller. It's just a weakness of mine. Sorry I'll try to work on it.

The main reason I choose to "distunguish" from the Greek (southern Hellas) and Macedonians (northern Hellas) is simply this, one of the greatest military units of the ancient area, Alexander's elite bodyguard cavalry, the Companions, where left unrepresented. Now, ditching the Hoplite is dumb, in the game it rules and without them Greek would of fall to Xerxes in 400 or so BC (sorry, I'm also not a big date person, unless it truely means something in my everyday life [December 7th, September 11th, etc]). Now that leaves me this choice. Split the Greeks into two smaller factions, giving the Companions a chance to be in the game. Now, my logic is probly flawed big time, but at least I had good intentions (but what does that truly give young, some people say Stalin had the best of intentions, but we all know what he ended up doing).

Sorry again, but just try to accomidate while I might start to learn.

[Solmyr]

To anyone who thinks all the Habsburgs did was collapse, I recommend reading this page:

http://www.friesian.com/francia.htm#hapsburg

Bet you didn't know about the Austrian NAVAL victory over Italy

[burak]

There was one funny thing about Austrian Navy. It was cmmanded by admiral Horthy, a Hungarian, who became Hungary's dictator after fall of Habsburg Empire.
So Hungary, that hadn't access to sea, was ruled by Admiral, as he still used that title.

[TacticalGrace]

Re: Well...

Originally posted by Signa
I'm also not a big date person, unless it truely means something in my everyday life [December 7th, September 11th, etc]).

dec 7th was in your everyday life? How old are you?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Solmyr
To anyone who thinks all the Habsburgs did was collapse, I recommend reading this page:

http://www.friesian.com/francia.htm#hapsburg

Bet you didn't know about the Austrian NAVAL victory over Italy

Anyone who plays Diplomacy would know about Austria-Hungary's fleet starting at Trieste.... and possibly the battle of Lissa, too...

http://www.uow.edu.au/~morgan/lissa.html

I might also recommend Istvan Szabo's fine film, 'Colonel Redl', in this regard.

[orange]

Sure, battle of Lissa...

F Alb S F Tri - Adr