COTW - Japanese

[TVA22]

Japan Bashing

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! I totally agree with all of the people who say this should be kept light-hearted and focus on the good! For one, civ is a game, yes one intended to somewhat take things from real life, but in the 6 months or so I've visited apolyton, all I seem to find are Japan--Haters. Yes, they committed horrible atrocities, but so has almost everyone else, it just happens that the Japanese and the Germans happen to have committed thier atrocities most recently... You b!tch about the Japanese killing the Chinese... I don't advocate that at all, but maybe we should have a whole page dedicated to the Opium Wars, and the atrocities that came about there?! Have any of you even heard of that? My guess is no, you all are just products of History Textbooks, you won't realize that the Axis powers were provoked by the Allies, it's well known. Again, that doesn't excuse the atrocities, but seriously, they also skipped over detailed descriptions of Japanese culture, art, liturature (which most ignorant westerners just assume doesn't even exist). They're providing a general overview, and all of you who hate the Japanese so much should go read a political analysis of the Far East from about 1200-on. You all just want them to focus on the bad at this site, and if you really think civ should be a history lesson, then I'm sorry for you, it's a game, yes an informative one, but not a history lesson, by any means. The Japanese today are not the Japanese of Imperial Japan, the Majority of Japanese were never savage killers, it was an isolated part of thier history when the military got completely out of control of the Government's hands, and it was all a reaction to western imperialism in the Far East. Sorry this is so long winded, but I've always studied Japan and China on my own, and in school, now in college, and this kind of Ignorant country/race bashing P!SSES me off SO MUCH, look at the big picture, and stop treating these people like monsters because of thier past!!! Look at the big picture, and see what a magnificent, interesting, and totally unique culture they have. I don't think we should "white wash" all the horrible things about Japanese history, but if they're not pointing out everyone elses faults, why pick on the Japanese? Because they bombed Pearl Harbor? (Which had a tactical reason, was a military target, and was not at all similar to SEPT 11, like lots of analyists have been saying). Because they're Asians, and I get the feeling most of these Japan-bashers are white americans aged 12-15? Because they lost the war, and it was the most recent war of it's kind? Why, why do they deserve to be bashed everywhere, but it's okay to forgive and forget everyone else's brutality?

[Lord_Davinator]

Thumbs up to you TVA22


I totally agree with you.

[TVA22]

Wow

Wow... I'm stunned... for once, I'm not getting flamed for being a nipponophile? What's going on? Where am I?! But seriously, thankyou, thankyou so much, it's nice to find someone who agrees with me, for once.

[kittenOFchaos]

If you knew your history you'd know the Americans asked for it at Pearl Harbour...I will justify myself should anyone not bloody well ask themselves why it happened and was it any worse than declaring war as they had planned just before the attack began?

In civilisation it is about the winner, not the victims that let themselves be victims...or that merely class themselves that way.

[TVA22]

Who were you talking to? KOC?

I'm an American, and I (though I'm in the very very very small minority here) do accept that America did ask for it at Pearl Harbor, I know my history. I also think that the Western European allies and America asked for it from Germany. Hello, Versailles Treaty? C'mon, what were they thinking?! The real enemy in WW1 was secret alliances, Germany was no more at fault for it than France, and Germany didn't deserve to have to take all the blame for it, all they did was come to Austria's side, as stipulated in their alliance. It's true, both Germany and Japan were provoked into WW2, I'll defend that point of view with you kitten of chaos. But your last statement, about people who let themselves be victimized? I don't know what you mean, or were you not even speaking to me? I certainly don't think Japan let herself be victimized, the Japanese fought it out to the bitter end, further than most other countries would have.

[Drake Tungsten]

You're not the only nippon-phile here, TVA22. And I don't think Kitten was arguing with you, I think he was agreeing with you. Japan was baited into the war by the US, as any examination of history will show you.

[Shiva]

Re: Who were you talking to? KOC?

[SIZE=1] I also think that the Western European allies and America asked for it from Germany. Hello, Versailles Treaty?

President Wilson didnt want the Versailles treaty to be punitive. He wasnt able to change Frances and Englands mind on it though.

[knott]

I hope they mention Dresden when the americans come...

[Ecthy]

they mentioned Nagasaki and hiroshima when the Japanese came, so they should mention Dresden when the German come... and Schweinfurt, Hamburg, Berlin, Lübeck, Plauen, Cottbus,... *put in every German city here, no matter whether there was industry or not*... .

and they should mention all 3 of them (Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden) when the americans come

and the only country that wanted the Versailles treaty in the classical form was France... damn Clemenceau and the lot... and the only countries that chopped even more territory off Germany after the SECOND war (when the west had realized punishing Germany would be false) was the USSR and Polan

France was punished during WWII... Poland and Russia are still being punished, as the rest of the USSR is, by the fact they're all in economic depression... really, when the time of the reunification of Germany was on, many East Europeans feared that Germany might once again come to power and take territories of Poland... but then, the poor peole in Poland said they would be happy if the German east border was moved to the east, because everyone knew the East of Germany as going to gain a lot of economic growth from the reunification... wel, the economy here is still down, even wekaer than in socialist times... but the wealth has increased to the extreme, and I know what I'm talking about... I'm in contact with East Germany where I live and with Poland where my parents have studied and still know many people, so there's no sense in telling me I'm wrong. I'm digressing... just don't take the word 'punishing' in this last paragraph too serious, I just want to say there's no need for hatred between European peoples, at least us Germans don't have either the right nor the need to complain about the current situation in Europe. End of the story.

[Buck Birdseed]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Hmmm...the WWII history seems to skip from Pearl Harbor to the U.S. "bloody" invasion of Okinawa and the A-bombs. No mention of Japanese imperialism or atrocities in Korea, China and the Philippines. One would think they were the victims!

So, you'd like them to detail in excrusiating detail every atrocity by every civ? What happened to the Ukrainian massacres under the Russians (Soviets then)? You want them to focus on the Holocaust in the German description, and killing of Natives under American description?

Are you upset that the Aztec description didn't go nuts on their human sacrifices and what they did to rival tribes?

This Japan bashing is a bit much.

Whereas it's quite all right to describe Shaka's "massacres", a minor point in Zulu history compared to Japanese imperialism in Japan's, in excruciating detail the like of which I've never read before? Oh, it's all right, they're vicious Darkie brutes, obviously. Can't trust the ******s!

[Ecthy]

how many Chinese were killed by the Japanese then? wasn't it several thousands a day for a few months?

[YefeiPi]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! I totally agree with all of the people who say this should be kept light-hearted and focus on the good! For one, civ is a game, yes one intended to somewhat take things from real life, but in the 6 months or so I've visited apolyton, all I seem to find are Japan--Haters. Yes, they committed horrible atrocities, but so has almost everyone else, it just happens that the Japanese and the Germans happen to have committed thier atrocities most recently... You b!tch about the Japanese killing the Chinese... I don't advocate that at all, but maybe we should have a whole page dedicated to the Opium Wars, and the atrocities that came about there?! Have any of you even heard of that? My guess is no, you all are just products of History Textbooks, you won't realize that the Axis powers were provoked by the Allies, it's well known. Again, that doesn't excuse the atrocities, but seriously, they also skipped over detailed descriptions of Japanese culture, art, liturature (which most ignorant westerners just assume doesn't even exist). They're providing a general overview, and all of you who hate the Japanese so much should go read a political analysis of the Far East from about 1200-on. You all just want them to focus on the bad at this site, and if you really think civ should be a history lesson, then I'm sorry for you, it's a game, yes an informative one, but not a history lesson, by any means. The Japanese today are not the Japanese of Imperial Japan, the Majority of Japanese were never savage killers, it was an isolated part of thier history when the military got completely out of control of the Government's hands, and it was all a reaction to western imperialism in the Far East. Sorry this is so long winded, but I've always studied Japan and China on my own, and in school, now in college, and this kind of Ignorant country/race bashing P!SSES me off SO MUCH, look at the big picture, and stop treating these people like monsters because of thier past!!! Look at the big picture, and see what a magnificent, interesting, and totally unique culture they have. I don't think we should "white wash" all the horrible things about Japanese history, but if they're not pointing out everyone elses faults, why pick on the Japanese? Because they bombed Pearl Harbor? (Which had a tactical reason, was a military target, and was not at all similar to SEPT 11, like lots of analyists have been saying). Because they're Asians, and I get the feeling most of these Japan-bashers are white americans aged 12-15? Because they lost the war, and it was the most recent war of it's kind? Why, why do they deserve to be bashed everywhere, but it's okay to forgive and forget everyone else's brutality?

I just would like to say something. What the Japanese soldier did in WWII to China and other Asian countries were not simply atrocities, they were acts worse than what animals would conduct. You would call raping pregnant women and slicing their stomachs, then stick their bloody babies on a sword like shish kebobs atrocity? This is an act of extreme barbarism, hell, I don't even believe animals would do that.

And don't ever say to me if I had personally experienced the sino-japanese war, my grand parents did and they didn't make me forget it.

As you can see, I hate those Americans just as much for nuking Japan's innocent civilians on Hiroshima, but I also hate those Japanese soldiers to the extreme for the atrocities (too light of a description for what they did).

[IBNobody]

Originally posted by YefeiPi

What the Japanese soldier did in WWII to China and other Asian countries were not simply atrocities, they were acts worse than what animals would conduct.

Yes, Japan committed some terrible crimes against China, but they were NOTHING compared to what China did to themselves.

You can thank Mao Tse-Tung for that one. His social plans ended up in disaster, causing mass starvation among millions of Chinese.

From: WAR ISN'T THIS CENTURY'S BIGGEST KILLER by R.J. Rummel
Both World Wars cost twenty-four million battle deaths. But from 1918 to 1953, the Soviet government executed, slaughtered, starved, beat or tortured to death, or otherwise killed 39,500,000 of its own people (my best estimate among figures ranging from a minimum of twenty million killed by Stalin to a total over the whole communist period of eighty-three million). For China under Mao Tse-tung, the communist government eliminated, as an average figure between estimates, 45,000,000 Chinese. The number killed for just these two nations is about 84,500,000 human beings, or a lethality of 252 percent more than both World Wars together.

That's right! Chairman Mao is ranked #1 on the list of all-time killers, easily ahead of Stalin and Hitler.

- Nobody

[Ecthy]

but the conclusion is wrong

both world wars counted together killed 60 million people. 85 million is not 3.52 * 60 million is it? and it's not 2.52* as much either if I get the wrong idea of "252 percent higher"...

[IBNobody]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
but the conclusion is wrong

both world wars counted together killed 60 million people. 85 million is not 3.52 * 60 million is it? and it's not 2.52* as much either if I get the wrong idea of "252 percent higher"...

The conclusion is correct. More than 24 million may have died, but they didn't die in battle. Here's the first two paragraphs of the article.

Link to: WAR ISN'T THIS CENTURY'S BIGGEST KILLER
Our century is noted for its absolute and bloody wars. World War I saw nine-million people killed in battle, an incredi ble record that was far surpassed within a few decades by the 15 million battle deaths of World War II. Even the number killed in twentieth century revolutions and civil wars have set historical records. In total, this century's battle killed in all its international and domestic wars, revolutions, and violent conflicts is so far about 35,654,000.

Yet, even more unbelievable than these vast numbers killed in war during the lifetime of some still living, and largely unknown, is this shocking fact. This century's total killed by absolutist governments already far exceeds that for all wars, domestic and international. Indeed, this number already approximates the number that might be killed in a nuclear war.

- Nobody