Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Mongols and Spanish

[Wernazuma III]

Oh, not to forget: El Cid is inevitable as a spanish leader!

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Locutus
As Spanish Great Leaders I selected Cortes (Aztec conqueror), Pizarro (Inca conqueror) and Don Miguel de Espinosa (a famous admiral), and I fully expect at least one Spain expect to have objections or additions to these

To be honest with you, I have no idea who Miguel de Espinosa was Some other outstanding leaders: Gonzalo G. de Cordoba (the Great Captain), John of Austria (Philip II's half brother), Spinola, Farnese, Adm. Blas de Lezo, Adm. Churruca, Castaños, Roger de Flor, King Jaume I "the Conqueror", King Alfonso III "the Fighter", King Ferdinand III "the Saint"...

[Locutus]

Oerdin,
It would be great if you could start that Celtic thread.
I agree with you, it's at the very least doubtful if the Celts deserve to be called a civ but people voted for them en masse so that doesn't leave us with much of a choice...

Originally posted by Solmyr
I think this should be "Borte Khatun". Mongols put their titles after their names (compare "Kublai Khan" or "Subudei Bahadur").

You are absolutely right of course, I don't know what I was thinking. It'll fix it right away.

Wernazuma,
El Cid?

Jay Bee,
Hmm, well I read he was a 'famous admiral' somewhere but I guess 'famous' might have meant 'famous among a few small group of people'. I'll replace him with (some names from) the list you gave me.

[Dr. Nick]

Never played The Conquerors, Locutus? You have El Cid Campeador's campaigns there.

[jasev]

Originally posted by Jay Bee
To be honest with you, I have no idea who Miguel de Espinosa was

I don't have any idea about Miguel de Espinosa; I've searched in my books and haven't found anything at all, excepting José de Espinosa y Tello: Spanish Admiral (Lt. General of the Navy) and Geographist who travelled with the Malaspina Expedition at the end of the XVIII century.

Originally posted by Locutus
El Cid?

It is possible you don't know about El Cid?
Haven't you seen the film of Samuel L. Bronston with Charlton Heston and Sofía Loren?
Rodrigo (or Ruy) Díaz de Vivar, El Cid Campeador, was the greatest Spanish medieval hero, and the "Cantar del Mío Cid", telling his deeds, is as relevant in the spanish literacy as the "Chanson du Roland" in the french.

[Locutus]

No, I didn't play that game and I never saw that movie.
Is it possible to not know him? Is it possible to not know Thorbecke? He was a very important person in Dutch history but I seriously doubt anyone outside the Netherlands who never studied Dutch history would ever have heard of this guy. I'm sure this El Cid figure is important for Spanish people and people who study Spanish history but few others will have heard of him...

Coincidentally I saw a program on Discovery Channel yesterday about Spain and the host made a brief mention about this El Cid guy. Apparently he didn't fight for the Spanish or the Moors but for whoever paid him most (at times the Spanish, at times the Moors). From what I understood, he apparently killed many Moors but many Spanish too, shouldn't he be seen as some kind of traitor then? Anyway, I'll add him to the list of Great Generals...

[jasev]

Well Locutus, you're right. Most of spanish people haven't heard about that dutch polititian of the XIX century before , though he was one of the writers of Dutch Constitution and he's a very important figure in dutch history.

But I was annoyed because El Cid is a well-known figure out of Spain. Everyone who studied European Literacy knows about him, like about Roland or Beowulf. And, of course, Bronston's hollywood movie and AOEII: The conquerors made him known by other people.

shouldn't he be seen as some kind of traitor then?

Yes, you're partially right, but there's a little problem: there are two figures, the historical one (those you saw on Discovery) and the legendary one. In his Cantar, El Cid is a great hero who, after being unrightly exiled from Castile, conquers Valencia in 1044, defeating (and that is a true fact) the fanatic muslim sect of the Almoravids who had conquered the muslim Spain. He is the greatest symbol of Spain because a versicle in the Cantar: "Dios, que buen vassallo, si oviesse buen señor" (God, what a good servant, only if he had a good lord): this is an allegory of the spanish people.

[Shaka Naldur]

Originally posted by Locutus
Coincidentally I saw a program on Discovery Channel yesterday about Spain and the host made a brief mention about this El Cid guy. Apparently he didn't fight for the Spanish or the Moors but for whoever paid him most (at times the Spanish, at times the Moors). From what I understood, he apparently killed many Moors but many Spanish too, shouldn't he be seen as some kind of traitor then? Anyway, I'll add him to the list of Great Generals...

well, at the time there weren´t spaniards and moors

there were chrisitians and moors,

[Jay Bee]

(he, he, the Spaniards springing like panthers in defense of one of their national heroes )

Locutus, you haven't played any of my scenarios!

El Cid is the epitome of the European Medieval knight. Note "European", not only "Iberian". That Hollywood put its eyes on him should be very telling (in both the good and the bad sense). The movie is despicable but still good for a laugh or two

[Locutus]

Originally posted by jasev
But I was annoyed because El Cid is a well-known figure out of Spain. Everyone who studied European Literacy knows about him, like about Roland or Beowulf.

That's your view perhaps but I doubt it. Most people don't study European Literacy, not on an academic level at least. And what people learn in highschool is very culture specific. I could understand English people might be familiar with El Cid because Spanish a actually a course you can follow on English highschools but here in the Netherlands it is not (or at least only offered on a small number of schools). Dutch education (unfortunately) focuses entirely on it's neighbours as far as foreign literacy is concerned: English, French and German (and of course ancient literacy: Latin & Greek). I imagine this is the case for most (European) countries...

Jay Bee,
Nope, sorry, never played your scenarios
By the time I got internet access (and thus access to scenarios) CtP was about to hit the stores and I didn't bother to look at Civ2 scenarios anymore. I briefly looked at some Civ2 scenarios later on to see what is possible in terms of Civ2 modmaking, but because Civ2 is such a frustrating game to play, compared to CtP (no offense, just my not-so-humble opinion), I never got any joy from actually playing these scenarios

The fact that Hollywood made a movie about El Cid says very little. They made a movie about William Wallace and Robert the Bruce too and let's face it: how many people outside Great Britain had heard of these guys before Braveheart?

[jasev]

Originally posted by Locutus
Civ2 is such a frustrating game to play, compared to CtP

Heressy! Heressy! We should tell this case to Civ2 Inquisition. What could we expect from a Dutch protestant?

The fact that Hollywood made a movie about El Cid says very little. They made a movie about William Wallace and Robert the Bruce too and let's face it: how many people outside Great Britain had heard of these guys before Braveheart?

Almost nobody before, but almost everybody knows about them now, isn't it?

Well, I suppose you was right and I was too Spain-o-centric; I not-so-humbly present my apologizes. Homeworks for tomorrow: Locate this film and view it asap . And, by the way, you should try Jay Bee's scenarios, they're really good. (J.B, better you pay me for this).

[Rosacrux]

Originally posted by jasev


Heressy! Heressy! We should tell this case to Civ2 Inquisition. What could we expect from a Dutch protestant?

Calm down amigo, calm down. No violence is needed, and no outbursts for sure. We should calmly discuss this matter, hear his excuses, give him a fair trial...


...and burn him at the stake

[Locutus]

Originally posted by jasev
Heressy! Heressy! We should tell this case to Civ2 Inquisition. What could we expect from a Dutch protestant?

He! I'm an atheist and proud to be!

Well, I suppose you was right and I was too Spain-o-centric; I not-so-humbly present my apologizes. Homeworks for tomorrow: Locate this film and view it asap . And, by the way, you should try Jay Bee's scenarios, they're really good. (J.B, better you pay me for this).

That's more like it Homework? I didn't make my homework in highschool, what make you think I'll make it now

Nah, I'm not going back to Civ2 just for Jay Bee's scenarios. I'm sure their good but once you have seen the light of CtP, why would one want to return to the archaic and pagan ways of Civ2?

[Waku]

Originally posted by Locutus
He! I'm an atheist and proud to be!

So am I, but in my case I would like to believe in something but I don't.

Originally posted by Locutus
That's more like it Homework? I didn't make my homework in highschool, what make you think I'll make it now

I don't believe you can open such good threads w/o some preparation from hi

Originally posted by Locutus
Nah, I'm not going back to Civ2 just for Jay Bee's scenarios. I'm sure their good but once you have seen the light of CtP, why would one want to return to the archaic and pagan ways of Civ2?

Up 2 u! but you're missing a very nice part

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by Locutus
Long before the Spanish civilization as we know it today came into existance other great civilizations ruled over Spain. Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Celts and later Romans all had cities in Spain, mainly because of it's abundant natural resources (gold, silver, tin, copper, grain, wool, olive oil, wine, etc). They all lived and worked next to and with the native inhabitants, the Iberians (as the Greeks called them). Starting in the first century AD, under Roman rule, Christianity was introduced, something which would profoundly influence events in Spain in the centuries to come. After the fall of the Roman Empire in the fifth century AD various Germanic tribes - most notably the Visigoths - moved into Spain but they had little impact historically. The role of the Catholic church grew considerably during this time. In the eighth century the Arabs and the Berbers (together known to the Europeans as Moors) invaded from Africa and enforced Islamic rule over Spain, only in the northern-most regions the Christians still had some power.

I find a bit difficult to accept this first part as Spanish civilization History or description. All these events happened in all the Iberian Peninsula, including what his, throughout more than 800 years now, Portugal's Continental territorry. So, maybe it should begun here.

It wasn't long though before the Christians began the Reconquista, the reconquest of the subcontinent which would take 700 years.

This was originally a fairly weak confederacy of independant states but over time these states (with the exception of Portugal) went through a unification process which would eventually lead to a truly unified kingdom of Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella (see below).

The way i recall it they were as confederate as any of the European kingdoms between themselves, ie, not at all.

In the same year, Christopher Columbus, a Genoese navigator, discovered the New World.

Mind you, he didn't discouver the New World: he always claimed to have discouvered another maritimal route to Asia (he thought Cuba to be Japan!!!) .

In 1580 Philip also inherited Portugal and thus the Iberian Peninsula was united for the next 60 years.

Please don't say that!
Philip II of Spain was Philip I of Portugal.
The means the crowns were never joined!
When the Spanish King tried to join the crowns, Portugal restaured the Independence.
That, and saying that Spain reached Asia (which only had Portuguese colonies) because of these meansly 60 years is too far fetched to be called hystoric record!

My editing: (I have to correct this last statement. After writing it, I recalled the Phillipines were once a Spanish colony, but that's the one I recall and frankly the only thing I recall about the Philipines in those days is about piracy)