is Joan of Arc politically correct? I want Clemencau

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Mark L
I agree. I want the Sun King in the game. He wasn't in any civ game

"The law? That's me"

He was in Civ2

[Kc7mxo]

Hmm. There's sixteen empires, right? How many have female leaders? 4? Cat, Liz, Joan, Cleo (and why the hell is it cleo and not nefeteri?),

on the other hand there's monty, abe, mao, ghandi, xerxes, julius, shaka, ham, tokugawa, hiathawa, bismark and alex.



thats 4 to 12. i don't mind having the four gals, even if it does mean loiue, henry, stalin, ramses are out. just wish they'd pickced better pictures. why'd they have to make Cat and Liz so damn old?

anyway, i don't paticuarly care as i'll probably turn off their annoying faces after a week or so anyway. :-)

[Master Marcus]

Originally posted by Snapcase
Add "person living in Montreal" to the list.

Do you have a name ???? Are you talking about the North american city I know so well, or the small village in France? two distinct worlds apart I'm afraid...

Btw, François Mitterand was perhaps the most politically correct leader of the 20th century. A centrist opportunist , and he was regularly praised even by U.S. politicians. Il vint de la gauche, mais géra comme un grand de la droite .

[KrazyHorse]

He was talking to me, since I professd to know who Clemenceau was. (And I didn't even know of the existence of Montreal, France)

He's probably right, though: As a quick guess, I'd put the percentage of the adult pop. who knows who Clemenceau was at <5%. Sad commentary on our educational system...

[Sarxis]

Oh don't get me wrong: I would rather see Napolean or even King Louis be leader. But, things are as they are.

[Rogan Josh]

I would vote for Napoleon first, then Louis XIV, and then Charlemange.

If they want another woman, find one from another civ. Is Catherine the Great the leader of the Russians, or is it Peter?

[squid]

I wanted Louis XIV or Charlemagne, preferably Charlemagne. Joan of Arc? That's silly.

For Egypt, they should have chosen a true Egyptian that influenced the mythology of Egypt. Ahkenaton, perhaps. Neferti would have made an excellent (and beautiful) woman ruler. Tut. died young.

Though I can not argue with Alexander the Great leading the Greeks, he did rule towards the end of the whole deal. Of course, you can't exactly have the entire Athenian senate ruling, can you? They need one person

Lincoln is not a president I greatly admire, but he is a fairly neutral choice and doesn't look terribly liberal.

England. They got that one wrong. It should have been Henry the 8th, clear enough.

Germany is dead on with Otto von Bismarck.

The lack of the Spanish is unsettling. The Spanish, like Great Britain, controlled nearly half the globe.

The Vikings were great explorers, but I can see the missing element since they are a lost civ....but so are the Mayans!
The Aztecs! All dead. The Aztecs or Mayans alone may have been enough.

I think it's horribly stupid to have Mao rule China, as China was most lucrative in real persuits before it turned to Communism, planned economics, and poverty -- before the "cultural" revolution. There were many good rulers to choose from.

And as far as the Spartan equivalent in SMAC, you can chose no better than the Mongols. And that would contest China on the world map very nicely and actually give a reason for the inclusion of the great wall.

The dynamics of the game look great. Leader choice seems to be influenced by a need to:
1) include more ladies (but not the right ones!)
2) include leaders the common person (not educated person) has heard of.

[lord of the mark]

my point missed?

Its not that Joan is politically correct -as those who have followed my postings know, Im dreadfully politically correct - i donbt want the game (ro any other cultural product) to be simply fun - I want to judge it for its social and political implications, what it teaches and what it ought to teach - thats PC, isnt it?

What dismays me is that political correctness has been drained of meaningful political content, and used to refer to a way of thinking that judges people based solely on their racial or gender identity - ie Joan is a woman, ergo putting her in is "progressive" without an ounce of thought as to what Joan believed or represented. Thats why I chose Clemenceau - not just that he led France in one of its greatest (though horribly costly) grand strategic triumphs - world war one - his force of will makes him the virtual churchill of that war - but also because his role in French domestic politics was PROGRESSIVE - the only other conceivable DEMOCRATIC leader for France is De Gaulle, and De gaulle was definitely a conservative. Clemenceau was a leader of a radical movement, which while it shied away from socialism, wanted both a firm commitment of the state to social and economic justice, and a thorough going commitment to democracy. He is a worthy model for current "third way" politics - I would think much more of Civ3 if it honoured such as him. For those who have followed my "German travesty- weimar mod" thread, you will see that here I am attempting to address similar issues wrt France.

LOTM