The KOREAN Civilization: Things Every Civ Player Should Know

[siredgar]

That was a typo.

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Sir Edgar, you might want to do some more research before you threaten to take anyone to school. Your knowledge of ancient Japanese history is atrocious. Anyone who thinks Shinto is a modified form of Buddhism has some serious studying to do. Sadly, you aren't the only uninformed one in this discussion. Please, end this pointless rambling before my head explodes.

Yes, you are right, it was an exaggeration, but it is still based on Confucianism.

I do not claim to be an expert on Korea or Japan, but to add to the discussion. However, my knowledge of ancient Japanese history is not "atrocious" and I cannot ignore statements that are completely MISinformed.

Furthermore, I do not threaten to do anything or make threats of any sort. Instead, I act upon my intentions.

[Drake Tungsten]

Shinto is not similar to Confucianism either. Shinto is a very distinct religion and that is the reason many people consider the Japanese civilization to be distinct from all other world civs.

Anyway, I'm sorry I snapped at you. You are certainly not the only one throwing out incorrect statements; this whole thread is full of them. I'm just a little testy today; I have a term paper due next week on Japanese foreign policy prior to WWII and I really need to take a break.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Shinto is not similar to Confucianism either. Shinto is a very distinct religion and that is the reason many people consider the Japanese civilization to be distinct from all other world civs.

Anyway, I'm sorry I snapped at you. You are certainly not the only one throwing out incorrect statements; this whole thread is full of them. I'm just a little testy today; I have a term paper due next week on Japanese foreign policy prior to WWII and I really need to take a break.

This theory that the Japanese civilization is distinct from all other world civilizations is really getting to me now. Just because a group of people say that they are separate and apart from the rest of the world and give things new names and make modifications, does not mean that they are. To me, that is equivalent to recognizing "Aryan" ideology.

Which of the following do you believe in?

http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/hi3-1.pdf

"1. As early as 1921, the historian Kida Sadakichi suggested a link
between the establishment of three strong kingdoms on the Korean peninsula around the fourth century and the almost simultaneous appearance of the first Japanese state. Two of the three Korean states, Koguryeo and Paekche, were thought to have been founded by elements of a people known as the Puyeo,
whose homeland was in south-central Manchuria. Historians and folklorists are quick to note that the Puyeo legends recorded in ancient Chinese texts bore similarities to certain myths and quasi-historical accounts from ancient Japan.

2. The Japanese myths, as narrated in Kojiki and Nihongi, are full of arrivals and advents of gods coming down from heaven and gods sending their semidivine relations to various parts of the Japanese islands on missions of conquest. The myths recorded in Kojiki and Nihongi do not seem to be antihistorical. They rather seem to provide an understandable framework within which the facts could be accommodated, a response to the identity
crises of the Yamato rulers."

Koreans also have a mythological tale about their origins and I believe a shamanistic religion, but they do not seem to claim the same kind of uniqueness or divinity.

For Shintoism's theory of Japanese divine origin to be taken seriously by Westerners is pure comedy. I am not discrediting Japanese religion or civilization, but it is not anymore "unique" than other civilizations, including the Korean one. This is all national PR to deny a mixed origination and yet I don't understand what's so wrong with having a combination of origins for a single group of people.

Really, I am flabbergasted that we in the West dine on all of this tripe.

[thinkingamer]

Re: That was a typo.

Originally posted by siredgar


Yes, you are right, it was an exaggeration, but it is still based on Confucianism.

Uhmmm. u mean Naturalism or Taoism, right?

[Drake Tungsten]

I never said that I considered the Japanese to be a unique civ. I simply pointed out that Shinto is a very distinct religion and that this is a major reason that some historians would consider the Japanese to have a unique civ. Many historians consider a unique religion to be a major factor in determining the uniqueness of a civ. I don't really agree with this. It is impossible to objectively determine whether a civ is "unique" or not, so this whole discussion is academic. I'd rather not debate the "uniqueness" of civs as I think it is pointless.

However, I do understand why some historians would consider Japan and its religion unique. Why is Shinto unique? Because it has survived for so long. It may be similar to ancient Korean shamanism, but the Korean religions didn't survive the introduction of Buddhism. Shinto not only survived the introduction of Buddhism, it fully incorporated the new ideas and thrived. Consequently, Japan is one of the few civilizations in the world to still be adhering to its ancient religion. Don't you think England would be different today if Druidism had survived the introduction of Christianity? Shinto isn't unique because of its origins or its tenets, but because of its longevity and influence on the Japanese psyche.

As for the influence of Korea on Japan, it is undeniable that some exchange of people and ideas took place. That said, I think you are placing too much importance on the arrival of refugees from Paekche in the development of Japan. Japan was certainly not a backwater as you have previously said. Some theories even propose that the Japanese controlled an area called Minama (Kaya in korean) in southeast Korea. Japan may also have provided military aid to Paekche in its war against Silla, although evidence is sketchy. At any rate, I think that it is prudent to assume that cultural influence went both ways. Without further evidence, there is no way to really know what was going on in East Asia at the time.

[Wernazuma III]

Sorry, I did NOT read the whole thread.

yin: just a few questions: Could you try to form Korea into Civ3 patterns for the Exp.Pack?

I would need:
Ruler and Title
City List
Leaders
CSA
Shunned/Favored Government
UU with attributes and which unit it replaces

Thank you, Wernazuma

[Q Classic]

you know, i feel rather ignored...

wernazuma3: here it is again:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33965

[Q Classic]

ruler and title: wang (king) sejong the great. this is prolly better written as: daewang or taewang Sejong

cities, partial list, and not using the historical names: seoul, kyongju, inchon, taejon, pusan, chongju, ulsan, cheju, suwon, kwangju, taegu, pyongyang, nampo, hamhung, pohang

leaders, partial list: yi sun shin, ulchi-mondok, kyon-hwon, kung-ye, wang-kon

CSA: scientific and something. i almost want to say religious or economic, because in historical times it was a religious state while in modern times an economic/industrial... so.

Shunned/Favored Government: this is an issue. i would like to say Communism would be shunned, with a favored government either as democracy or monarchy, depending on your outlook; for most of history, monarchy, and in recent history, authoritarian democracy... so...

UU with attributes and which unit it replaces: Kobukson/turtleship, replaces frigate, 3-3-3, saltpeter, iron.

[egovalor]

yin said
<>

Not a chance. I work at the busiest airport in the world (Hartsfield), and we won't let you catch up. Kidding of course, but you may have a point. Hartsfield is a major hub but is extremely limited in terms of expansion but surrounding freeways and such. 20 years is a long time though, alot of things can happen.
One thing: I HATE the sight of those big Korean Air 757s. We don't get them here anymore (I think you guys fly straght into dallas or something now), but boy, when we did get them they were alot to deal with. A huge hassle. Question: what in the **** do koreans put in their baggage to make them so friggin heavy? I swear, every bag off a korean air plane is like 4 foot tall and weighs like 150 pounds. EVERY BAG. I hear you guys wet your clothes so you can fit more in the bag. That's cruel and pathetic. Only thing worse then seeing a little old korean lady dragging four 150 pound bags of wet clothes is seeing a little old mexican lady from San Salvador dragging ten bags of 200 pound goat cheese.

WHATS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE COMING INTO THIS COUNTRY???

We have Walmart here. You can buy clothes HERE. We have kroger here. YOU CAN BUY GOAT CHEESE HERE FOR CHRISTSAKE!!!!

Sorry. Just a rant from a jaded airline employee.

Wetting your clothes to fit more. THAT'S why you aren't in civ3. That is 100% uncivilized.

[yin26]

Wernazuma III: I think Q-Cubed did a nice first attempt. Let us know if you need more!

egovalor: LOL! I nearly fell to the floor laughing just now! Yes, it's one of life's great mysteries. I can say that part of the problem is that Koreans general plan to give gifts to each other when they travel, so a number of the items are not Walmart items. Jars of home-made kim'chi can be a good example of something somebody flying from Korea to the U.S. might bring for family and friends there. Yes, I've heard of those jars breaking and covering a tons of other bags in kim'chi stains and smells.

Not good, I agree.

But I think it speaks to the fact that Koreans simply give and get a lot of stuff when they visit each other, especially across an ocean like that. Having said that, most passengers from most any country pack waaaaay too much crap when they plan to visit overseas for anything more than a day or two. Domestic flights don't have the problem.

Anyway, wetting clothes to fit more in the bags should be outlawed! We need water-sniffing dogs I think!

[Wernazuma III]

thanks

Thanks Q cubed, that's something I can work on! Regarding the city list: I got a longer list of modern korean cities myself, I'd rather need a few historical to spice up the list

[Q Classic]

wernazuma: the historical cities are an issue: not because it's a problem locating them, but because many of those cities have been renamed, either because of the occupation or for other reasons. i'll go track some down: like ch'ongju was suwon (not modern day suwon, pronounced soo-won, but seo-won), and seoul was hanyang at one point.

[Q Classic]

oh, i almost forgot: depending on how you want to organize things with the civ:

historically, you could place the capital at Kyongju, much like how in civ2 japan was based in edo, iirc.

modern day, korea would be centered around Seoul.

[Q Classic]

oh, and i've never known my family to wet clothes... but yin was dead-on with the gifts. every time we visit my extended family over there, we pack our bags full of stuff to give them... then we try to hide our luggage so they don't give anything back, but they find it anyway.

this is why we have, like, an entire shelf-ful of pewter cups that we don't use...

[thinkingamer]

[QUOTE] [SIZE=1]
However, I do understand why some historians would consider Japan and its religion unique. Why is Shinto unique? Because it has survived for so long. It may be similar to ancient Korean shamanism, but the Korean religions didn't survive the introduction of Buddhism. [QUOTE]

It's not only similar, but Shintoism is a Korean influence, and ancient Korean Shamanism survived, as much as Taoism survived in China.(which is not much BUT it still survived)

[QUOTE] Shinto not only survived the introduction of Buddhism, it fully incorporated the new ideas and thrived. [QUOTE]

Buddhism did not allow shaman rituals as much as Cristianity did not allow witchcraft. I guess the Japanese did not follow Buddhism correctly and instead combined it with Shintoism.

[QUOTE] Consequently, Japan is one of the few civilizations in the world to still be adhering to its ancient religion. Don't you think England would be different today if Druidism had survived the introduction of Christianity? Shinto isn't unique because of its origins or its tenets, but because of its longevity and influence on the Japanese psyche.[QUOTE]

I think (actually many other people do)Shintoism is more of a nationalism than a religion (because the main reason that u r a
Shintoist is because u r Japanese [or Japanese wannabe])

[QUOTE] As for the influence of Korea on Japan, it is undeniable that some exchange of people and ideas took place.[QUOTE]

Exchange??? from about 4-6 AD cent. Koreans taught Japanese Confucianism, Chinese writting system, Astrology, shipbuilding, music, papermaking, etc. I dont know anything that Japanese taught Koreans untill 20th century (which are mostly western stuff).

[QUOTE] That said, I think you are placing too much importance on the arrival of refugees from Paekche in the development of Japan.[QUOTE]

I agree with this one, but Paekche refugees did certainly helped Japanese progress.

Japan was certainly not a backwater as you have previously said. Some theories even propose that the Japanese controlled an area called Minama (Kaya in korean) in southeast Korea. Japan may also have provided military aid to Paekche in its war against Silla, although evidence is sketchy. At any rate, I think that it is prudent to assume that cultural influence went both ways. Without further evidence, there is no way to really know what was going on in East Asia at the time.

While for Japanese, Japan providing military aid to Paekche is evidently sketchy, for Koreans Japanese controling Kaya is evidently sketchy also. But this issue is TOO controvercial; its not wise to touch it unless u really know about it.

But do u want to believe the people that wrote their own history, or the history that Japanese wrote for Koreans? (Yes! they did that