Greek Hopolite too powerful?

[Brad]

I agree that the hopolite should have a defence of 3, since obviously it must be a better unit than the spearman, but making the Egyptian and Babylonian special unit both 2/1/2, which is very weak. These units should have an attack of at the very least 3. And also if the Roman Legion has got an attack of 3 or 4 (likely 4) that means the normal legion has an attack of 2 or 3. Since the only thing you need to get to be able to research iron working is bronze working (according to the screenshots) that means that both the babylonian and the egyptian special units will be gone almost as soon as they came. What advantage does that give them?

[fred]

the price

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by UberKruX
keep that hoplite long enough and my panzers will show you how powerful it is.

It is also my impression that the panzers are strong, but of course this all speculation and it is assuming that the military units bear some resemblance to the units of Civ2. In Civ2 the turning points in military technology were gunpowder and tank warfare. I'm more worried about the panzers being imblanced than the hoplites.

But of course we don't know the exact statistical details of combat yet and maybe the panzers aren't too powerful.

[Melios]

Re: Re: hoplite/pikemen

Originally posted by Swissy
As far as planting the spear to receive a cavalry charge, that was a tactic from chariot times. From the earliest of times it has always been a fools errand for mounted troops to charge formed well-ordered foot troops. Missles and manuever were used by the mounted troops to disorder the foot soldiers before a charge could be attempted.

Which is why the main body of a Phalanx formation had the spears pointed upwards to deflect projectiles.

Good luck using that against Catapult fire though.

[Felch]

I can't wait to see what sort of bonuses the latter civs get. The F-15 will probably kick ass. What am I saying, it will kick ass. Because this is America!

In terms of the hoplites, the concept of a phalanx was pretty widespread throughout the ancient world. It's kind of silly to consider a phalanx different from pikemen, since pikemen were really just a reintroduction of a classical technique which was mixed with newer technology (principally crossbows and arquebuses). Still, I'd have to say that the Greek hoplites were unique in that the people who wrote the surviving history of that time (such as Herodotus), were also Greek. It just makes sense that any information we would have about them would be complimentary. Besides that, they seem aight in game terms. I'm looking forward to hiding behind my city walls as the Persians tear up my road network and destroy my colonies. Yep, that would be the life.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Mark L
When the romans did conquer the greeks, as the first empire in history, they were in awe of the power of the Hopolite...

I thought Rome was a republic, not an empire, at that time.

[Transcend]

The Hoplites Romans faced in their conquest of Greece were actually the Macedonian Phalanx, a formation quite different than the Hoplites during the Peleponesian War. Macedonian Phalanx were characterized by long spikes and deep ranks. If set on motion on even terrains, the Macedonian Phalanx were a terrible sight and a effective killing machine. But if gaps appeared in the formation in which swordsmen could exploit, then the individual soldiers in the rank were next to helpless. The Battle of Cynocephalae in 197BC saw the first major contest between the Roman Legion and the Macedonian Phalanx. The Macedonians/Greeks were crushed because individual Roman units took initiatives in exploiting gaps within the Phalanx formation. Another battle in 168BC was again decided by gaps in Phalanx formation, but this time it was the uneven terrain that caused these gaps.


The middle age Pikemen were similar to Macedonian Phalanx in their weapons, but had vastly different tactics. Instead of operating on a front front and deep ranks, Pikemen formations were actually squares which could turn to face enemy attacks from all sides, something that was missing in the Macedonian Phalanx. Also Pikemen formations were developed to face cavalry attacks which were even more mobile than the Legions.

[Ralf]

The defence-factor of the greek hoplite-unit too high? I leave that to others to discuss (personally, Im not worried). But if you want to trigger an Golden Age with help of an successful attack, you better hurry. As an attack-unit, hoplites becomes obsolete pretty quickly. Attack 1 & movement 1 means move out immediately and trigger that Golden Age, before its too late.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

It seems that Firaxis is pitting rival civs against each other, giving each of them advantages in different time periods and making regional conflicts.

Greeks/Persians: Persians have better attack, Greeks better defense, so statistcally, its a draw
Americans/Iroquoi: Im guessing that the Iroquoi specil unit is like a warrior or something primitive, while the Americans have the f-15. This here gives a chance for the iroquoi to whup on the Americans in the Ancient ages and te amercans to whup on the iroquoi in the modern age.