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**KrazyHorse** · August 23, 2001, 14:23

I don't know what you're measuring any of these things by, but you're crazy.

French only probably? They were (and are) the major Western continental power from about 1100 a.d. on, with an exception starting in 1871 and continuing to 1945.

The Russians (I'm assuming that the ballerinas comment is directed towards them) have been around for twice as long as the Americans as an independent civ, and even longer as a people.

The Japanese and Zulus are less "worthy" than the Iroquois?
That's pretty amazing, given that there were not really any Iroquois cities, whereas the Japanese had cities, a complex economy etc., and the Zulus had cities and a unified nation.

The Aztecs didn't originate Central American civ; they inherited it from the Olmecs, and their primary achievement over other Central American civs was military, not architectural.

**Ribannah** · August 23, 2001, 16:44

YefeiPi, something is wrong with your post: too many Romans!

Personally I would replace the Zulus with the Ethiopians and maybe the Aztecs with the Hopi, but otherwise I agree with Firaxis' choices.

**Imran Siddiqui** · August 23, 2001, 17:47

I think I'd replace the Iriquois with the Incas, and Zulus with the Mali Empire.

Also, I'd think it is a tossup between Babylon and the Arabs(Muslims) over who should be in the game. Babylon have how old they were, while the Muslim Arabs have how much they conquered and ruled.

**Grim Legacy** · August 24, 2001, 09:03

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I think I'd replace the Iriquois with the Incas, and Zulus with the Mali Empire.

Also, I'd think it is a tossup between Babylon and the Arabs(Muslims) over who should be in the game. Babylon have how old they were, while the Muslim Arabs have how much they conquered and ruled.

Muslim Arabs is not a civilization in the sense used in the game's context. Nor did the "Arabs" achieve very much. The Turco-Mongols and the Ottomans did, on the other hand.

**JellyDonut** · August 24, 2001, 10:22

The Persians weren't really the "cradle of Arab civilization." They are an Indo-Aryan people and their language is related to the Indo-European languages (English, Latin, Russian, Hindi, etc.) and not in any way to Arabic. While they may believe in Islam, it is not because of any ethnic relation to the peoples of Arabia.

**lord of the mark** · August 24, 2001, 11:24

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I don't know what you're measuring any of these things by, but you're crazy.

French only probably? They were (and are) the major Western continental power from about 1100 a.d. on, with an exception starting in 1871 and continuing to 1945.

The Russians (I'm assuming that the ballerinas comment is directed towards them) have been around for twice as long as the Americans as an independent civ, and even longer as a people.l.

Whats an "independent civ" ? Surely you mean an independent state.

LOTM

**lord of the mark** · August 24, 2001, 11:26

Originally posted by Grim Legacy

Muslim Arabs is not a civilization in the sense used in the game's context. Nor did the "Arabs" achieve very much. The Turco-Mongols and the Ottomans did, on the other hand.

If you mean a state, no, but they did have the ommayad and later abbasid caliphates, which were states.

Their cultural and scientific acheivements were considerable.

LOTM

**KrazyHorse** · August 24, 2001, 11:31

Surely I do. Sorry, but some people kept telling me they were the same thing long enough for me to begin to believe it subconsciously.

**Imran Siddiqui** · August 24, 2001, 14:57

LOTM is correct.

The Arabs from 700-1400s AD were one of the most powerful civilizations in existance. People clamor about the Spanish not being included, but the Arabs had a much greater impact on history. The invention of algebra, for example. Along with an empire that reached from Spain to India.

**monkspider** · August 24, 2001, 16:53

I agree with Firaxis' decisions on this matter, I would love to see the Mongols worked in somehow, but I don't know how, perhaps at the cost of The Persians? (Babylonians and Persians in the same game with such a low number of civs seems a bit redundant) But for the most part I think Firaxis' civ decisions were absolutely perfect.

**lord of the mark** · August 25, 2001, 11:01

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Surely I do. Sorry, but some people kept telling me they were the same thing long enough for me to begin to believe it subconsciously.

I hope you dont mean i said that civs and states are the same thing

Civ2 (and apparently civ3) protagonists are definitely states, though they are called civs, and they seem chosen to some degree to represent civilizations rather than specific states (thus *Greeks*, not Athens, or Macedonia, or Seleucid empire, or Byzantium, or Modern Greek state) This ambiguity didnt matter much when we playing with generic civs - since all the civ meant was a name, leader names and city names (and a diplo/growth style, but only for AI controlled civs) Now that we have unique civs contradictions begin to emerge. It no longer works to paper over the differences between a civ and a state - I am only to trying to regularly point out the contradictions, as they become apprarent in these threads.

LOTM

**Saint Marcus** · August 25, 2001, 11:42

The Arabs from 700-1400s AD were one of the most powerful civilizations in existance. People clamor about the Spanish not being included, but the Arabs had a much greater impact on history. The invention of algebra, for example. Along with an empire that reached from Spain to India

I'd say that the Arabs are part of the Persian civ. I think the Persians are the proto-Arabs, like the Olmecs are the proto-Aztecs.

**Saint Marcus** · August 25, 2001, 11:55

YefeiPi: The French should definetly be in. No question about it. From the days of Carolus the Great to De Gaulle they played a very important part in the history of the world.

Anyway, when I get the game I'm changing some civs right away.

Keep

English
French
Germans
Russians
Americans
Aztecs
Egyptians
Romans
Greeks
Persians
Chinese
Japanese
Indians

Replace

Incan (instead of Iroquis)
Ethiopians (instead of Zulus, but we do need an African civ to combat the Egyptians on a World Map)
Mongols (instead of Babylonians, makeing the Persians and Babylonians one civ)

Adding, if possible

Spanish
Vikings
Carthagians
Ottomans

Possibly adding

Arabs
Babylonians (keeping the babs and adding the Mongols)
Goths
Mayans

It's kinda hard finding the right civs. Almost all the worlds great civs are in Meso-America, Middle East, Meditereanian or Europe. Relatively very few can be found in Asia, South+North America and Africa

**Transcend** · August 25, 2001, 14:02

Originally posted by Mark L

I'd say that the Arabs are part of the Persian civ. I think the Persians are the proto-Arabs, like the Olmecs are the proto-Aztecs.

Wrong. Persians had their roots in south russian steppes, while Arabs were natives of the Arabic Pensinsular. Even their languages came from 2 independent families: Indo-European for Persians and Semitic for Arabs. It was true that during various times of history these 2 civilization ruled over the same territory, but their cultures were very very different and should not be labeled together. The Arabic culture is that of Islam, and it has replaced the ancient Persian and Egyptian cultures.

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