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  • Predefined special abilities: a near miss?

    We aren't playing the game (if not for some posters with "Firaxis" label near the avatar ), so we are on a mine field discussing feature we don't know in detail and that are probably still in last minute tuning.

    Anyway...
    Firaxis decided to take SMAC Factions special traits and revamp them into predefined Civ special abilities.

    They are intersting, still probably a nightmare to balance but they add a "distinct" feel to any Civ., not without some problem

    First and most relevat problem that come to my mind is they are fixed, from game start to the end, and every game the same.

    That's fine if you want a good replica of a part of earth history, as for a scenario that last for a couple of centuries, but what about the whole lenght of human civilization and some years more? or what about creating alternative history?

    Are modern Romans (call us Italians ) still "Militaristic, Industrious"? Or English "Commercial, Expansionist" all history long?

    Retoric question, obvious answer.

    What can we do for a better result?
    Randomizing the special abilities is not the way to go, IMHO. You don't know your opponent weak and strenght points in advance, but that will end at first diplomatic meeting or espionage.

    What about dynamic change over the initial abilities?
    You must start from a point, so let's accept Firaxis initial settings (or give them a tuning, if you really disagree ).
    Yet during turns the game engine should consider how the players is acting, then slowly shifts ability (internal) parameters until on a threshold towards another ability couple.

    At that moment an advisor should warn you, with a message on the line of "Sire, we aren't exploring and conquering enough, so we are losing our "Expansionism" will, but because of our efforts in city improvements we are now rewarded as "Industrious, Militaristic" from others civilizations."

    You can have a warning with some turn in advance, just in time to try to steer away from an unwanted change, or fall straight into it, paying the effort to come back.

    If you have enough patience, please follow an example of the model:
    Let's assume that every Abilities have an internal meter worth 100 points, with a treeshold of 50 (taken or given 10 inertia points, more explanation later).

    You start the Babylonians (Scientific, Religious) and take the corresponding benefits.
    Scientific counter is set to 80%
    Religious counter is set to 80%

    Militarist, Commercial, Expansionist, Industrious are set to 20%

    After some turns your research are going pretty well, raising Scientific counter to 90% (e.g. +1% every full turn spent diverting 10 percent more money income to research than treasury, i.e. research 55% money = treasure 45% money),
    but you are pressed from a militaristic neighbourg to divert your production from religious improvement (temple) to military units, so your Religious counter lower under 50% and your Militarist counter raise over 50%.

    Now you have the warning, and you have still short time to recover, until your civ spend the remaing 10 "inertia points over the threshold". That works both side, while an ability raise or lower.

    When this happens, you have a new reputation over the world: you are still Scientist, but now Militarist, and advantage are changed accordingly. Religious abilities is gone, until you go back to a compatible style of play.

    Are you still awake and reading? Thanks, this is a great achievement by itself.

    Now, just another minute to examine strong an weak points of this model.
    Strong: you model your Civ, from your favourite Firaxis benefit to the best example of your personality, as its Greatest Leader.
    Any game can be slighty different, and you Civ evolve and react according to your will and events changing during the game.

    Of course, during long wars ages all the players involved will probably shift toward a militaristic ability, but that ended anyone will probably go back to this "style", and so will do ability.

    You should probably be able to switch off the feature for scenario needs, just to keep the Civs strictly in predefined roles, but in every "free" game and specially in MP you should love that freedom.

    Weak points: I only give a glance to the game actions that can modify the Ability Counters. They need a good study and some link rules, or you risk to end with too much counters over the activation threshold on none at all
    Of course no laws force us to have only and always TWO active ability, but I keep this for compatibility with current game design.

    Just the early promised clarification: as you have noted, the "inertia" is needed to avoid too freequent and unwanted "waving" up and down the threeshold.

    Ok, anyone can help me to iron out the weak points?

    BTW, I understand is really too late for the game release, but you can never say for sure what a second patch can add under the game bonnet, and surely that's not a feature that add user complexity, so should pass the Sid's Ten Laws

    Comments and critics are welcome. Insults, as usually, are automatically redirected to trash bin

    edited to better explain some point
    Last edited by Adm.Naismith; August 23, 2001, 11:26.
    "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
    - Admiral Naismith

  • #2
    *sigh*

    ITS A GAME!!! everyone, its not supposed to be perfect down to every detail, i think its fine as is.
    "Nuke em all, let god sort it out!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Eh eh, yes it's a game: thousands of people around here, a million copies expected sold... it's a commercial product, and a little entertainement gem if we are lucky.

      But I'm not insulting Firaxis

      I was just looking at how many debates started about how right are the value predefined by Firaxis, so I cleaned the dust from a concept already mentioned months ago, rounded the angles to my taste and posted.

      All the forum is full of similar posts, why are you angry with me right now?
      "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
      - Admiral Naismith

      Comment


      • #4
        While I think the idea of dynamic characteristics is good, I have some doubts re- your thoughts.

        Characteristics should be relatively inert, otherwise there is little point including them at all. Only after a relatively long time should a possible transition take place, not after you build four units.

        Comment


        • #5
          Perhaps one way to balance it is to limit the change-overs to when you move from ancient to medieval or medi to modern...
          This reflects the relatively long times that certain civs had their special traits.

          Or, if you think only 2 changes is not enough, (i dont either ), then after changing from ancient, the civilizations traits could change at the end of every century, so its not like you build a cathedral, and then become a religious civ, and then build a military unit, and change again.

          Well, its one way to stabilize the system a bit
          I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: *sigh*

            Originally posted by splangy
            ITS A GAME!!! everyone, its not supposed to be perfect down to every detail, i think its fine as is.
            One more time - the notion that civs have pre-determined traits that last 6000 years is NOT a detail, it gets to the heart of what this game is all about. Its far more of a deviation from Civ2 than is say, the inclusion of televangelist units or space cities

            LOTM
            "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Grim Legacy
              While I think the idea of dynamic characteristics is good, I have some doubts re- your thoughts.

              Characteristics should be relativ++++inert, otherwise there is little point including them at all. Only after a relativ++++long time should a possible transition take place, not after you build four units.
              I absolut++++agree. You wrote my thoughts exactly.

              also, i think the thing about everyone switching to militaristic in a big war is a bigger problem than you may think it is
              And God said "let there be light." And there was dark. And God said "Damn, I hate it when that happens." - Admiral

              Comment


              • #8
                [QUOTE] Originally posted by Grim Legacy
                While I think the idea of dynamic characteristics is good, I have some doubts re- your thoughts.
                [quote]

                That's fine

                Characteristics should be relatively inert, otherwise there is little point including them at all. Only after a relatively long time should a possible transition take place, not after you build four units.
                The exact level of tuning is, of course, to be determined with game balancing in mind and a playable game model to give a try.

                OTOH, it seems to me that inclusion of characteristics should not been intended as a way to pre-define the way a Civ act for 6000+ years
                That's the way to force AI civ to have some difference in civ development, without the complexity to have an AI smart enough to differentiate by itself.

                The most useful point should be to add visible effects to different Civ "way to build history", or to reflect your style of play.
                So it should change smoothly, of course not every couple of years, but definitelly during a long war you should see a shift to militaristic feel: can you show to me when in history people don't acted so?

                dainbramaged13, would you please tell me more about side effects I can't see by myself?
                "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
                - Admiral Naismith

                Comment


                • #9
                  I like the idea.

                  If you are going to use percentages a change you might think about is going full blown and have the top two advantages be used up to its percentage. That way you would have to continue to be religious to actually to get the full advantage.

                  What I mean by this is that your the Babylonians:

                  Scientific and Religious: 80%
                  Militaristic, Expansion, Commercial, Industrial : 20%

                  Currently you will start the game with full advantages, what if you only get 80% of the intended bonus at the start.

                  Down the road you have neglected your nation's religion but have improved the industry and so the percentages are:

                  Religious: 49%
                  Industrial: 50%

                  So the nation switches its top two attributes to Industrial and Scientific. But Industrial only gets about half the improved build speed that they could get from the bonus. Meanwhile Science has risen to 90% meaning that workers only work 90% faster than they could.

                  Any way, an idea to add to the evolution of switching between attributes.
                  About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. With a simple click daily at the Hunger Site you can provide food for those who need it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tniem
                    I like the idea.

                    If you are going to use percentages a change you might think about is going full blown and have the top two advantages be used up to its percentage. That way you would have to continue to be religious to actually to get the full advantage.
                    Yes, I considered that point too. Still, if you don't want to add too much complexity to the model, I introduced the "20%" as a safe room: if you continue to be religious you raise more to 100%, hence gaining some more poinst when bad times came and force you to lower the religion for others abilities.

                    Starting abilities can still be some kind of "attraction pole", where your Civ slowly come back if you act in a "neutral" way.
                    I.e. a Babilonian Civ can fall back to (Scientific, Religious) if nothing keep it away from it. This solution should make Grim Legacy happy, too

                    Skanky Burns, I agree to a stabilization element: that's also the reason because I mentioned that "inertia percentage" to avoid the system collapse on frequent change. I'm not happy about a "era limit", because it sounds false to me, more a programming shortcut than an efficient model (and I'm quite expert of programming "shortcut", after some years of audit and control over outsourced programmers ).
                    "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
                    - Admiral Naismith

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dainbramaged13


                      I absolut++++agree. You wrote my thoughts exactly.

                      also, i think the thing about everyone switching to militaristic in a big war is a bigger problem than you may think it is
                      Always nice to have people agreeing with you!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Adm.Naismith


                        The exact level of tuning is, of course, to be determined with game balancing in mind and a playable game model to give a try.

                        OTOH, it seems to me that inclusion of characteristics should not been intended as a way to pre-define the way a Civ act for 6000+ years
                        That's the way to force AI civ to have some difference in civ development, without the complexity to have an AI smart enough to differentiate by itself.

                        The most useful point should be to add visible effects to different Civ "way to build history", or to reflect your style of play.
                        So it should change smoothly, of course not every couple of years, but definitelly during a long war you should see a shift to militaristic feel: can you show to me when in history people don't acted so?

                        dainbramaged13, would you please tell me more about side effects I can't see by myself?
                        Yeah ok, keeping the balancing in mind, I'm positive about the idea.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
                          Skanky Burns, I agree to a stabilization element: that's also the reason because I mentioned that "inertia percentage" to avoid the system collapse on frequent change. I'm not happy about a "era limit", because it sounds false to me, more a programming shortcut than an efficient model (and I'm quite expert of programming "shortcut", after some years of audit and control over outsourced programmers ).
                          Hahaha, what a coincidence... im studying to be a programmer
                          I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I really like this idea too. I would see no problem in a society becoming militaristic during a long war - this seems to be what actually happens after all.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Grim Legacy


                              Yeah ok, keeping the balancing in mind, I'm positive about the idea.
                              I think that it coudl be good, if It was always that there were a certain number of expansionist civs, and a certain number of militarist civs, so that everyone wouldn't be the same type, with of course a very large inertia gap.
                              And God said "let there be light." And there was dark. And God said "Damn, I hate it when that happens." - Admiral

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