Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by alexman
As an extreme experiment, reduce the OCN to 1 and watch the AI never build a settler. I did it yesterday. Definitely not domination threat from such an AI.

Hmmm, playing an all OCC game would be kinda interesting...

[jshelr]

AU Mod Favors Humans

(Posted in "general" but moved here on recommendation.)

This note is an academic quibble with the notion that we are being fair to the poor AI in the AU mod. We are not IMO.

I approve overwhelmingly of the changes in the AU mod. However, I believe the idea that the mod has evened the playing field for the AI, even a little, is not correct. The new mod empowers the human player, particularly the warmonger. In short, me. That's why I like it.

My case rests on the SS build. In the basic game, while the human player is pounding his or her way to domination, a single civ, often separated by geography, can manage to research to the SS. This presents, as we all know, a critical time requirement for domination and strategic tradeoffs about the type of win to aim for. Go to slow and get stuck out of democracy and you might fail to achieve domination, not because any civ defeats you but because the SS clock runs out.

With the new SS requirements in the mod, the time to achieve domination has been materially lengthened. This reduced risks for the warmonger, especially on higher levels. Moreover, the improvement of the modern era wonders, which humans are more likely to get, further tilts the playing field in the human direction. I bet winning percentages go up visibly on deity and that emperor, like monarch used to be, will now approach 100% wins (if you survive the bad starts) for many of the players that post on these boards.

This is emphatically not a whine. I will likely use the new mod almost exclusively. Great work was done and many of the changes do make the AI more competitive. This is sort of like the old Roman games, however. The Christians may be a bit better armed, but we know who's going to get eaten.

[alexman]

An interesting theory, jshelr, and thanks for posting it. I had never thought of that. The SS changes were made to add strategic depth to the modern ages, not to help the AI.

The real problem is, of course, that the AI never wins by domination. If it did, the delayed SS would be equally helpful to domination-aspiring AI empires as it is to humans. If we manage to get AI civs that win by domination, we might get humans that have a harder time building the SS before the AI gobbles up the land.

However, I would be willing to reconsider the SS change, just because it doesn't directly help the AI (and because it changes modern-age strategy, even if it deepens it).

[jshelr]

A couple of months ago, when several of us were trying to beat deity, we agreed that a good first step was turning off the SS victory. That's what the AU mod essentially does. It's an interesting question whether we would have more fun if the SS reverted to normal PTW form.

[Franses]

This is a great mod. Like many others I like it a lot. But I made a remarkable observation.

I just played a very interesting game with the mod on emperor level. The map was on random and it turned out to be all small islands with a rather bad starting position for myself. This meant I had to hang out for a while and for the first time ever I had to do so until the beginning of modern times (even though I am a builder most games were finished long before that until now).

Then everybody started to make war with everybody else which gave me the opportunity to add some extra ground to my territory. I took part in a coalition and was at war with three of the eight civ's, two of them being in the lead. Now what was remarkable was that none of the civ's (except the Korean's who where in my coalition) used air units. IMO, in Island maps air units are often essential to kill off the ships that dare come into your range.

Any idea why these mighty civ's did not use air units? I myself can not find anything in the mod that would explain such behavior. Or was this all a coincidence. What do you think?

PS: This game also proved jshelr's point. With SS I certainly would have lost the game.

[alexman]

No idea why the AI didn't use air units. If anything, we have made air units a bit stronger. Probably just a coincidence, if you ask me, especially since Korea did use them. We'll keep an eye on it though.

On another note, is anyone interested in playing a PBEM game with this mod?

[Franses]

My experience with (CTP) PBEM games is that they take several years to end. To long for me.

However, I think with PTW it is possible to start on-line and then switch to PBEM (and perhaps back again?). That might be a nice solution. If you are willing to try that I am definitly in.

[jshelr]

PBEM with this mod -- count me in please.

[Fosse]

Looking for a better space race

I've never noticed easier dominations on AU, but I never pursue that victory path. If the changes have indeed made a human win easier, then maybe there's another way to add some fun into the modern era.

There have been various mods which have tried to fix the space race, the most recent that comes to mind is at
this link.

EDIT: There are two files, be sure to grab both if interested.

It's for vanilla Civ III, but worth checking out.


As for incorporating it into AU... I don't know, the more involved people can decide... it adds a touch of realism, which I think is one of the goals (not top priority, and never at AI expense, if I recall)... but it doesn't seem to help the AI, which is the primary goal (doesn't seem to hurt it either).

[Panag]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Quick! Crank out those interceptors!

hi ,

its funny but if you hit one of the ships from a pair , ( the AI seems always to sent them out in pairs ) then the AI sends both back for repair , ......

Soren any way to let the AI think twice about that , .....

okay a ship should return , but not an elite battleship with 4 hitpoints left , ......

have a nice day

[Theseus]

You sure, panag? I've seen very different behavior lately... ships stay out and even attack with 3 out 4 hps left, especially when in pairs.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Theseus
You sure, panag? I've seen very different behavior lately... ships stay out and even attack with 3 out 4 hps left, especially when in pairs.

hi ,

yep , when the two units of a pair loose one point , they chicken out , ......

have a nice day

[Theseus]

What version / patch are you playing these days?

[alexman]

After Fanses' comments about the AI not building enough air units, and after observing what player 1 is doing in his mod recently, I think we should rebalance the air units compared to the naval units.

I propose to increase the ROF of bombers, so that they are better bombard units than battleships again. This means that we would have to increase the ROF of the rest of the air units too. We would restore the bombard strength of St. Fighters and F-15 back to their original value, and the cost of the St. Fighter back to its original value too.

This would keep the air units' relative strengths close to what it is in the stock version, except that fighters (stealth and normal) are strengthened relative to bombers due to lethal bombard. It would also keep the relative effectiveness of battleships and bombers close to what it is in the stock version.

         ===ORIGINAL===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%BB)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Frigate     2    2     6   0.33    125
         Man-O-War   3    2     6   0.46    173
         Ironclad    4    2     8   0.57    161
         Destroyer   6    2    12   0.75    141 
         Battleship  8    2    20   0.89    100
         AEGIS       4    2    16   0.57     80

         ===AU MOD===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%BB)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Frigate     2    2     6   0.33     83
         Man-O-War   3    2     6   0.46    115
         Ironclad    4    2     9   0.57     95
         Destroyer   6    2    12   0.75     94 
         Battleship  8    3    20   1.33    100
         AEGIS       4    3    16   0.86     80

         Value = Percentage of cost-effectiveness of battleship.

         ===ORIGINAL===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Fighter     2    1     8   0.17     16
         Bomber      8    3    10   1.33    100
         Jet Ftr     2    1    10   0.17     13
         F-15        4    2    10   0.57     43 
         St. Ftr     4    2    12   0.57     36
         St. Bbr     8    3    24   1.33     42
         Cruise     16    3     6   1.85    231*

         ===AU MOD===
         Unit       Str  ROF  Cost Dmg(HP) Value(%Bbr)
         -------------------------------------------------------
         Fighter     2    2     8   0.33     23
         Bomber      8    4    10   1.78    100
         Jet Ftr     3    2    10   0.46     26
         F-15        4    3    10   0.86     48*
         St. Ftr     4    3    12   0.86     40*
         St. Bbr     8    4    24   1.78     42
         Cruise     16    5     6   3.08    288*

         Tables assume a 10-strength defender
         Str = Bombard Strength
         ROF = Rate of fire
         Cost = shield cost / 10
         Dmg = expected damage in HP
         Value = Percentage of cost-effectiveness of bomber.
         * = lethal land bombard

[Franses]

Sounds good to me. This may indeed help them building air units again.