AU 205: The Power of Gold Revisited Results and Spoilers

[nbarclay]

Here's a new results and spoilers thread for AU 205.

[nbarclay]

Contrasting the build dates for the ancient wonders (and keep in mind both games are Monarch level):

AU 105:
Colossus - Iroquois, 1225 BC
Great Lighthouse - Egypt (me) 825 BC
Pyramids - Iroquois, 470 BC
Great Library - Egypt, 210 BC
Oracle - Aztecs, 530 BC
Great Wall - Egypt, 10 AD
Hanging Gardens - Iroquois, 250 AD


AU 205:
Colossus: Iroquois - 1225 BC
Puyramids - Carthage (me), 750 BC
Oracle - Iroquois , 710 BC
Great Lighthouse - Aztecs, 250 BC
Great Wall - Iroquois, 230 BC
Great Library - Carthage, 130 BC
Hanging Gardens - Carthage, 290 AD

From this, it's hard to make the case that the AIs are particularly more aggressive in pursuing wonders in PtW than they were before. In both cases, the Iroquois got three, I got three, and the Aztecs got one, and the timing difference is probably small enough to be explained by differences in build costs for the different sets of wonders we got.

The AI research rate hasn't been as much faster as I might have expected either, especially considering that an AI edged me out for the Great Lighthouse this time around (thanks to my delay building the Pyramids) so I couldn't prevent AIs in the two hemispheres from contacting each other the way I did in the first game. The first AI entered the industrial era around 1200 or just a little before this time, vs. 1290 or a little before in the previous game. That's small enough that differences in contact times and trade interactions might be able to account for it, but it's enough of a difference to stop me from steamrolling the world with cavalry the way I did in 105. Actually, my own military operations are going slower this time, probably because my research is going a little faster and I stopped to build factories before I finished conquering my hemisphere. (Guess what I was doing all night last night? )

Nathan

[Killerdaffy]

Having heard ancient tales about the geography of this world (and rumors of an inevitable early clash with the evil Romans) our wise and ancient leader decided to head the Ottomans. This would place us only one step away from the secret of Iron Working, a neccessary requirement for vanquishing those Roman Babarians! Also, after listening to the explanations of his sooth sayers that inexplicably the secrets of Iron seemed to be far harder to discover than they thought, Sultan Suleyman decided to ignore them for the next 2000 years and hope they'd get it right sooner or later.

After finally equipping his armies with iron weapons, in 1790BC the Great Sultan orders the attack on Rome and lets it burn to the ground. Caesar builds a new palace in Veii, even closer to the Ottomans homeland. Shortly thereafter a runner brings the news from the Southern Jungles that Athens has been spotted.

After the Romans pick another fight with the Persians and nearly get themselves wiped off the face of this disk that is called "earth", there is a certain hiatus. While Istanbul can show off the magnificent Pyramides, Athens boasts with the Great Library and the Persian guide their ships with a Lighthouse.

Plotting to take over the Great Library the Sultan swells his armies with chariots and horsemen, waiting for the moment in the future when even more advanced technology will be available.

In 410AD the construction of Sun Tzu's War Academy is completed. Now the time is ripe to teach Alexander and his stinkin' Greeks a lesson.

Greece before (in 480AD):

[Killerdaffy]

In centuries of battle the Greeks are reduced to rubble. The Great Library could be saved from the flames, fortunately, so after peace in 680AD it will open again to wise men from every corner of the globe.

Then something unheard of happens: Xerxes asks our fleet to leave his terriatorial waters, our admiral acknowledges and - gets beamed into contact with the Iroquois!!!!

[Killerdaffy]

The Persian Infidels don't last long after our glories hordes of 40 Sipahi sweep their island. The rapid mass upgrade was made possible by our Golden Age that was triggered shortly before the attack by Leonardos WS (otherwise it didn't do a lot, since there was no FP, yet).

Meanwhile the Iroquois have cleaned up their continent and sacrificed some American warriors in Montezuma's honor (unfortunately he didn't live to see it).

[Killerdaffy]

The Romans attack me - and die two turns later in 1290AD. It's time to clear my hemisphere, so the Greeks join the Persian in OCC by 1325AD.

I didn't realize that I played on Monarch last time, Emperor definitely made the game a lot harder and sped up the tech race. That coupled with my lack of leaders (I used the first one for an army, figuring with my warmongering I would get more) and the resulting absence of a FP until late Medieval made my intial conquest extremely slow (ok, compared to last time but this time I knew the map beforehand). I also missed the Colossus because I built a granary first. Duh!

Notes on the AI:The Iroquois killed everybody on their continent before I ever got there! I'd say the new setting (more aggressive) works great. The tech sequence was harder to predict but I didn't pay too much attention. Also because everybody had contact (and was trading) nearly immediately and Alex had the GL I couldn't really make out what everybody was researching.

It's 1325AD now, and I have stationed 35 Sipahi on the Iroquois continent, my hemisphere is 99% conquered. I don't really like Industrial Age warfare, since I micromanage too much and it will take me forever to kill the last bit of those Iroquois so I don't know if or when I'll finish the game.

[jshelr]

Arabs Prove Expert at Jungle Warfare

I hadn’t played AU105 or the Arabs before. So, that looked like a learning experience. The game was played on Emperor level.

We decided to research toward Monarchy. Arabia was first to each tech on that branch at 10% science.

We also managed to slip our scout immediately by the edge of Rome and that probably helped us a lot as the game unfolded.

There was good opening turf. However, Rome limited us to 4 decent cities and we left the tundra open. Four cities proved to be plenty as our workers turned them into swordmen factories. As our vet swordmen lined up to attack Rome, Greece attacked them first. We waited a few turns for Rome’s legions to migrate south. The peninsula then fell like knife through butter and we quickly owned cities all the way out to the gem mountains.

Made peace with the rump of Rome for some tech. Researched Monarchy and traded with Greece for construction and Literature. Started GL in Mecca which turned out to be a killer city with shields over 20. Had used a leader to build the HG and the FP was cooking in Rome, pretty well-placed.

The Greeks made unreasonable demands at that point, probably because Persia had earlier. Persia was not a real threat and, feeling feisty, we refused the Greeks. They declared war and we allied with Rome so Greece could beat them up first. Mecca built the GL and the tundra space to our north was occupied by Rome. Used a leader for Sistine Chapel.

Greeks had lots of regular units. Need to fix this if we really are going to have a killer AI. Made peace without gaining anything with Greece and Persia received 80 gold.

Sailed over to the other continent with only one galley.

Greece tried to go through our land to get to the remaining Roman tundra city. That let us bushwack them as they declared war on us after a demand that they leave. Arabia then slugged it out in the Jungle with Greece, triggering the GA with an AW. This was not going to be good turf for AWs, although they look like a fabulous UU. Cheap three-move knights with religion. China fades into the past.

Built a couple of AW armies and gradually wore Greece down. MI covered by Hoplites in the jungle were not fun, but we matched up with pikes and MIs. The AI was too impatient and we were able to maintain the advantage in individual combat. Human players would have been much tougher to dislodge from the jungle.

I was definitely not impressed with the AI research speed in this particular game, although I can’t help on comparisons with AU105. We are about to break out of the jungle and the AWs are going to rock!

[ducki]

I'll post more once I've completed the game, but just so everyone knows, you can beat Regular and Veteran Immortals with a Vet/Elite Horseman/Archer force. I had a single Elite Swordsman that I had to be painfully careful with, but with careful tactical use of cultural borders, roads (and the lack thereof) and a nearby barracks, I was able to use 3-4 Archers and 2-3 Horsemen with a single, cowardly Swordsman to fend off a steady stream of Immortals and Archers.

If it hadn't been for my revolution 1 turn before completing the Hanging Gardens - postponing its completion, and therefore my Golden Age until I was out of Despotism, I never would have had the production value to crank out enough Mercenaries and Horsemen to hold my beachhead city that (I thought) stole Persia's only source of Iron.

Hehe, more on that later, I have to reload a save to get a screenshot that shows why I was able to fend off such a steady stream of Immortals with measly Archers and Horsemen until reinforcements could arrive.

I don't know for sure, but I think that timing may very well win the game for me. One turn earlier and I'm in a despotic GA, ugh!

P.S. I lucked out and hit Rome after Ironworking but before they actually built Legions in the first war and wiped them out in the second. This warmongering thing is getting easier.

[Killerdaffy]

AAR Update

Originally posted by nbarclay
Contrasting the build dates for the ancient wonders (and keep in mind both games are Monarch level):

AU 105:
Colossus - Iroquois, 1225 BC
Great Lighthouse - Egypt (me) 825 BC
Pyramids - Iroquois, 470 BC
Great Library - Egypt, 210 BC
Oracle - Aztecs, 530 BC
Great Wall - Egypt, 10 AD
Hanging Gardens - Iroquois, 250 AD


AU 205:
Colossus: Iroquois - 1225 BC
Puyramids - Carthage (me), 750 BC
Oracle - Iroquois , 710 BC
Great Lighthouse - Aztecs, 250 BC
Great Wall - Iroquois, 230 BC
Great Library - Carthage, 130 BC
Hanging Gardens - Carthage, 290 AD

AU 205 Killer AI on Emperor:

Colossus: Iroquois 1500BC
Oracle: Aztecs 1425BC
Pyramids: Ottomans (me) 1025BC
Great Lighthouse: Persians 900BC
Great Library: Greeks 900BC
Hanging Gardens: Iroquois 70BC

The Iroquois got most of the other wonders, of the early Medieval I only managed to build Sun Tzu and Leonardo's. Generally the get the title "most improved" while in terms of infrastructure India was still ahead (I spotted a couple of coal plants, not bad...)

After going back and looking at AU 105 again, I figured that I wouldn't need to much additional territory for a domination win, so I attacked in 1325AD. I could have ROP raped them and won quickly (the attack force was 68 Sipahi) but I consider that cheating, so I just got an MPP with India instead. They didn't help a bit but forced me back into the war in the same turn that I had finally managed to make peace, duh! Anyway, the Ottoman UU carried the day, I finally got a couple of leaders and one turn before Istanbul finished ToE (leader standing by for Hoover) the Ottoman Empire finally DOMINATED the world... (5589 points)

Acknowledgements: All the praise goes to the Sipahi! Without them this campaign would never have worked out, since they are the only thing that can still slice through Riflemen when all other offensive operations cease before the advent of tanks. Nothing short of MA has the same relative force and speed and until somebody gets Nationalism they OWN every landmass anyway.

[jshelr]

Thanks for setting up what turned out to be a very exciting game for me. After bashing heads with Greece for hundreds of years, the Arabs didn't have the energy that KillerD's civ demonstrated. We settled for an SS shot, but it was a very close multiple civ race.

Anyway, I wanted to demonstrate to myself, and anyone else who's remotely interested, that doing your own research is unimportant on Emperor.

After the war with Greece wound down, Arabia had hardly any Libraries and even needed marketplaces in some core cities. Woeful infrastructure, and we will still in Monarchy with most civs in Democracy.

So, we researched exactly one tech ourselves after the wheel and the Monarchy line in the ancient era before fission (Scientific Method).

1) We were never more than a tech or so behind.
2) By the start of the modern era, we had mega bucks in gold and, actually, never succeeded in spending it.
3) We got the SS by completing Seti and research labs in all good cities early in the Modern Era.

This strat works like a good mile racer. Stay close behind and husband resources for the final sprint to the finish. Only the finish counts.

Idea: Don't buy from the leader. Buy from a friendly commercial civ like france or india that is just behind the leader.

Next question is whether we really want the game to let the human player implement this strat successfully. The game would actually be harder if the AI had a more modest research cost advantage but tech trading were made more restrictive. But that's another thread.

[ducki]

I've failed to keep a good log, so forgive the lack of details.
First off, the Wonder list, Regent difficulty. Unfortunately, I forget if I played the Killer AI or not.

Colossus - Carthage(me) - 900BC
Pyramids - Aztec - 570BC
Oracle - Iroquois - 510BC
Hanging Gardens - Carthage(me) - 70BC
Great Lighthouse - Iroquois - 280AD
Great Wall - Aztec - 290AD
Great Library - Aztec - 580AD
Sistine Chapel - Carthage(me) - 690AD
SunTzu's AoW - Carthage(me) - 770AD
Leonardo's Wkshop - Aztec - 780AD
Bach's - Carthage - 1210AD
Copernicus' Observatory - Persia - 1280AD
Magellan's Voyage - Carthage - 1315AD
Smith's TC - Carthage - 1340AD
Shakespeare's Theatre - Persia - 1420AD


Since I was Commercial, I beelined for Lit. in case I needed the boost of the Library. Caesar had me hemmed in, so I was already pretty sure he had to fall.

Shortly after meeting Caesar, I traded Masonry+Writing for Warrior Code+18g from Caesar. I immediately started building Archers, Rome was way to close for comfort.

In 1475BC we declared war on Caesar with 8 or so archers, no defense, but 3 Numidian Mercs in training.
We took Rome and Veii, but feel we desperately need temples. How can we appease the gods without Temples?
In 1350BC we made peace with Caesar for Ironmaking, Pottery, Wheel and met Greece on the same turn.

From Greece, we learned of Ceremonial Burial.

Soon after, more Archers and a Handful of Horsemen finished off the rest of Caesars jungle kingdom and settled in for a phase of Building, planning to allow Greece to spend time expanding while I spent time fixing the problems this rather early expansion caused - no defense, little culture, not enough developed land, and an insufficient road network.

Well, that's as far as my log takes me.
I've since banished Alexander to the medium sized Island south of his original Lands and have a foothold on Persia, who is next on the chopping block.

Unfortunately, with those two wonders, he probably has enough culture that I need to wipe him out completely, which will put a strain on my Cavalry, particularly with Riflemen defending his cities. I'll have to bring a lot of cannon, it seems.

This has been a barrel of something fun. Thanks for setting it up guys!

[Dominae]

I never actually finished this game (see below), but I played through what were surely the most interesting parts. I chose the Vikings, as I wanted to allay or confirm my fears that the Berserk is a problematic UU.

I get off to quick start with my Scout contacting the Romans and Greeks relatively early on (pretty hard to miss the Romans, I know). I got a few techs out of the Scout too, although I don't remember which ones. The power of Expansionist here was that I could see that very early war with the Romans was a necessity. I therefore sneak-attacked the Romans with only 3 Archers and 2 Warriors. With their forces out defending their Settlers and exploring the continent, I didn't get much resistance, and it was a simple matter to avoid counter-attacks while pillaging the local countryside. In a few turns, Rome was crippled and I knew I could conquer it without too much additional help.

Oh, and I got a nice break: a GL from an Elite Archer. Here's the screenshot from the turn after Healfdene was created:

[Dominae]

As this was the first time I got a super-early GL, I took quite some time to figure out what I wanted to do with the little bugger. With the location of my capital, I figured some sort of Palace re-arrangement scheme was in order. The problem was that there was really no nice spot to put the new palace; the main body of the continent was nice and central, but was currently a mass of jungle. Overestimating my ability to cut down the stuff, I came up with a new plan: build a city right in the middle of the continent, use the GL to rush the Pyramids, and use the culture from that Wonder to ensure a successful Palace jump. I conquered the Romans pretty quick and set out to implement my plan.

Let me just take this moment to say that super-early Pyramids are an incredible use of a super-early GL. While it is commonly believe that the Pyramids are better conquered that built, when obtained so early it's just awesome.

A few years later, after eliminating the Romans and setting up a lot of new cities in the Great Jungle, I realised that my Palace-jump plan wasn't so great after all. After the jump, I would be left with under 2 high-production cities, the rest being lost to corruption or hampered by the lack of workable tiles. I thus decided not to jump the Palace after all. I also had a good feeling that the map was edited so as to make the Iron Works available at the starting location, so leaving my capital there would pay off in the long run (I still don't know whether the IW are possible...). Here's a screen from that time in my game:

[Dominae]

The Pyramids were a real help in clearing the Great Jungle. I tried something new by setting my very corrupt, jungle cities to produce nothing but Workers. Sure, my infrastructure suffered, but I got that Jungle cut down in no time. The city where I originally planned to Palace jump to rushed a Courthouse and started on the Forbidden Palace.

Since I was still using Horsemen and Swordsmen as offensive units, I chose the Persians as my next military target (rather than the Hoplite-infested Greeks). Upon scouting out their island with Galleys I saw (to my great surprise) that they had left the entire West coast uninhabited! So, instead of rushing in with military units, I quickly set up 3 cities along the coast. Each of them constructed Walls first (yep, Walls!), then each built one of Barracks, Harbor and Courthouse. I assumed that the Persians would have a bunch of Immortals standing around, and so I used a "defense is the best offense" maxim to get a foothold on their island. Sure enough, the Persians declared war and threw their many many Immortals at my cities. Between my hardy defenders (Walls are pretty good) and nimble counter-attackers, I weathered the Immortal storm with minimal losses, which set me up nicely to turn around and assault their cities. I was much more successful than they were in this endeavour:

[Dominae]

Here's the screenshot I forgot to include in the last post: