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**candybo** · September 1, 2002, 16:16

Looks great to me. 2 fish, 3 fur, 1 cow, hills, bonus grass, and on coast, to boot!

**Theseus** · September 1, 2002, 16:35

It's a great start... let me point out some subtleties:

* Every tile on a river gets +1 commerce. So, I'd start with the shield tile to the NW, and I'd mine it before building a road. Also, note that the fur, cow, and gold tiles on the river all get +1 commerce too, before you lay down a road!

* The capitol will expand automatically after 10 turns (from the culture of the Palace). It's going to take 5 turns to mine and road that NW tile. I think the next tile to be worked should be the cow, which will take 1 move to get there, and 4 turns to irrigate and then road. Thus, just when Thebes expands its territory, the cow tile will be ready to go.

* Why irrigate the cow? In despotism, the only tiles that can be worked to generate more than 2 food are those that already generate more than 2 food... the cow naturally generates 3 food, so irrigating it kicks it up to 4.

* Next stop, across the river, get those furs hooked up. That'll be a 1-2-2 tile, which will be a good balance to the cow.

* Thebes in general: As it's on a river and a coast, and with such good land (but only one food bonus in despotism), I would lean toward getting it bigger... sometimes you keep pumping settlers every time your capitol hits pop 3, but here I would advise against it. I would try to keep it in the 4-6 pop range. Depending on how the game goes, this should be a GREAT site for the Colossus.

**nbarclay** · September 1, 2002, 16:48

Nice spoiler. By moving the worker in each possible direction, you took away the challenge of making the decision based on only the information that's supposed to be available when the decision is made (not to mention the challenge of picking the right direction to send that worker his first move).

My current thinking is that settling in the initial starting position makes perfect sense. Moving to the northwest would get access to the cattle sooner, but taking the time to move would offset part of that advantage and I hate wasting a shielded grassland. Moving due north would avoid wasting a shielded grassland, but would take away the capital's ocean access and stick it with coastal squares that can't be used to best advantage later in the game due to lack of a harbor. On the other hand, moving north or northwest MIGHT result in getting lucky and finding another land tile or two with a food bonus.

One other thing I like about the starting position is how productive a capital positioned there is all but destined to become. Furs bring a production bonus and can have their underlying forests chopped down and replaced with mines, which creates the potential for a size-seven city working nothing but two-production grasslands (or one production but extra food from the cattle tile if it is irrigated instead of mined). Better yet, the gold in two of the hill tiles would help support a remarkably large workforce for building ancient wonders without having to turn the luxury rate up too high. And once the transition to Republic (or Monarchy) is made, a size twelve city working all those hills could be a true marvel to behold. Still later, if I've calculated correctly, with a railraod and hospital, the city's eventual base production (before factory and power plant) would reach at least 51. It could be even higher if there's a shielded grassland lurking under one of the two empty forests or if there's a strategic resource that boosts production around.

Nathan

**Theseus** · September 1, 2002, 17:12

I think it's OK for the purposes of this thread to have a little spoilage.

Good point though... the first move with the Worker is usually pretty important. Rules of thumb: Move the Worker before building the town. Usually go N/E/S/W... you'll see more. However, you usually want to move onto a tile that you're going to work right away, so in the case either NW or E. I usually want to know what's along rivers, so NW. Thus, a good first Worker move would have unveiled at least one fur and the cow anyway.

And yes, this really is a sweet site. This is going to be one of those situations where you mine everything (except the cow), and then selectively irrigate over the mines later.

**nbarclay** · September 1, 2002, 17:16

Originally posted by Theseus
* Next stop, across the river, get those furs hooked up. That'll be a 1-2-2 tile, which will be a good balance to the cow.

Chop down a fur forest and replace it with a mine and you get just as good a production under Despotism but better food. The production from chopping down the forest doesn't hurt either, especially if trying to build an early granary (which I think makes lots of sense here; it makes a good settler pump early and allows relatively rapid growth to a large size once other cities are ready to take over settler production).

* Thebes in general: As it's on a river and a coast, and with such good land (but only one food bonus in despotism), I would lean toward getting it bigger... sometimes you keep pumping settlers every time your capitol hits pop 3, but here I would advise against it. I would try to keep it in the 4-6 pop range. Depending on how the game goes, this should be a GREAT site for the Colossus.

If my rough calculations are right, with a temple and MPs, the city could probably grow to size 9 at a 20% luxury rate or size 12 at a 30% luxury rate even on Emperor. Between the gold hills, the rivers, and the furs, that city has potential to get a LOT of leverage out of the luxury rate!

Nathan

**Theseus** · September 1, 2002, 17:20

Good point about chopping down the forest... whether to road first is probably determined by what you are building at the time.

Rather than using the luxury slider, hopefully there are other luxuries resources about... get three, for instance, and Thebes can be a monster in no time.

**nbarclay** · September 1, 2002, 17:40

Originally posted by Theseus
And yes, this really is a sweet site. This is going to be one of those situations where you mine everything (except the cow), and then selectively irrigate over the mines later.

Except that by the time you're ready to irrigate over the mines, you'll very possibly have a harbor to get extra food out of the fish. Working one fish and one mined grassland with shield is the equivalent of working two irrigated grasslands with shield until the age of railroads. If you leave forests intact, irrigating grasslands under Republic or Monarchy in order to work the forests could make a lot of sense. But my inclination is to chop down forests and replace them with mines. With the fish available, and with the cattle tile irrigated, that would give me three food surplus working all the hills under Republic without switching any mines over to irrigation. Then switch the cattle tile to mining (if it makes any practical difference) and move a laborer from the fish to a land tile and the city is a production-maxed size twelve. That avoids the need to switch mines over to irrigation at least until the industrial era - especially if you have a granary to get better growth out of a three-food surplus.

Nathan

**nbarclay** · September 1, 2002, 18:00

Originally posted by Theseus
Good point about chopping down the forest... whether to road first is probably determined by what you are building at the time.

Keep in mind that chopping and then roading is faster than roading and then chopping. I usually figure that if I'm going to chop in the fairly near future, I want to do it before I build roads. The down side is that a chop-then-road approach could require boosting the luxury slider temporarily, but giving the worker a head start on everything else he'll do for the rest of his life should repay the lost gold with interest.

Rather than using the luxury slider, hopefully there are other luxuries resources about... get three, for instance, and Thebes can be a monster in no time.

Until a marketplace is available, two extra luxuries would at best replace only one notch of the luxury slider in the size ranges I have in mind. I'd definitely love to have a couple extra luxuries, but I suspect that I would view them as a complement to using the luxruy slider rather than as a full replacement. (Of course the tiny number of MPs I typically have available causes me to use the luxury slider a good bit more than most players anyhow.)

Nathan

**Theseus** · September 1, 2002, 18:24

I chose to play Monarch anyway, as I expect that many of the newer players will do so. So, we've got the benefit of generally more content cits, as well ass garrisoning. Agreed, though, I definitely used a combo of luxes and the slider.

**Konquest02** · September 1, 2002, 20:09

Originally posted by nbarclay
Nice spoiler. By moving the worker in each possible direction, you took away the challenge of making the decision based on only the information that's supposed to be available when the decision is made (not to mention the challenge of picking the right direction to send that worker his first move).

Nathan

I know, but you can't discuss the game without spoiling it a little. If the image we had would have been the actual starting image, the posts would have been : " Move your worker, then we'll see..."

Anyway, played a bit and the starting location is just great. Missed most of the wonders though...I defenitely agree that this is a city made for the Colossus, because of the river going by.

--Kon--

**Theseus** · September 1, 2002, 20:20

Well there's a tip right there.

Typically, the AI civs do not prioritize the Colossus, so I feel comfortable waiting a bit before starting it. Given the nature of this start site, though, I felt almost a compulsion to make sure I get it. So, rather than use Thebes as an early boot camp or settler factory, I built a Temple, and started on the Colossus as soon as I researched BW.

**Konquest02** · September 1, 2002, 20:32

Originally posted by Theseus
Well there's a tip right there.

[B]Typically[B], the AI civs do not prioritize the Colossus, so I feel comfortable waiting a bit before starting it. (emphasis mine)

In my game (regent), the Colossus was the first completed wonder, and pretty fast too. But I agree that most of the time, the Colossus is what I call a "leftover" wonder (i.e. Shakespeare)

--Kon--

**vulture** · September 2, 2002, 06:11

There's one additional bonus to the start location, and that's the fact that the river doesn't actually enter the sea next to the city (or anywhere for that matter). What this means is that a road south from the start position doesn't incur the movement penalty of crossing rivers, which can be rather important when planning where to build roads at the start. A road that takes a longer route can be faster than a direct road somewhere that crosses a river once or twice.

Also, given how far north we start on the world map, there's a good chance that everything north is already ours, and the expansion needs to head south or east, depending on how the land lies. In either case, the road south over the hills is going to be useful, and IMHO is a priority once 3 tiles for the capital have been improved.

**Robber Baron** · September 2, 2002, 12:17

Great thread, Konquest02. Thanks. The level of analysis here hits players like me (played a bunch, but have a LOT to learn) right in the sweet spot.

Suggestion for future thread management:
You should let the current status (starting position, plus a bit of an extended view) collect a few days' worth of analysis, then play, say, 10 turns forward, then stop and post, to gather more analysis on the next round of decisions. (Could be 10 turns -- or a major turning point, e.g., AI civ makes a demand and/or declares war.)

I'd find that depth of ongoing, sequential analysis very helpful. I bet a lot of people would!
In any event, this is great stuff.

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