Banana Island Spoiler

[Jawa Jocky]

Don't read until you have made contact with everyone.

[Jawa Jocky]

Something about this game sounded fishy (the 1337 reference in Sir Ralphs post) so I dropped down a level and played Monarchy. I'm glad I did because I'm still doing terrible, and I want to find out if its just bad luck.

I figured it would be an isolation start (banana ISLAND), so I went straight for map making with max science. Before I even started reseaching map making the persians dropped by. They had meet the Japanese already and had a big tech lead. I had nothing to offer (5 gold anyone?).

How the hell did Persia get to Map making so quick???

I was distracted by this and never really focused much for the rest of the day. Once I got galleys I mass produced them and sent them on suicide missions. I made first contact with Rome, Russia, Egypt, and Germany. I was able to get caught up briefly with the tech leaders England and Persia. But through my creative mismanagement I was quickly far behind again.

I missed every wonder and could never get a UU off the island to start my GA (tried in Middle Ages).

I hope my guess is correct concerning our advantage, because I'll never win otherwise.

I'm still haunted by my inability to get to map making and build the G. Lighthouse (I had nothing to pre-build either since I went straight for map making). I should have played Regent, but that's too much pride to swallow for an emperor level guy.

[Taian]

Hmm..I'm giving it a try at diety and am currently sitting roughly 8 (?) techs behind the leaders (I hope...). I know where pretty much everyone is, but I only have contact with one civilization. Traded world maps though so the view looks good
I've begun my campaign against the english and managed to capture their two cities on the mini-banana. Sued for peace and got some techs out of the bargain as well...bonus! Worked at consolidating my gains and am now preparing (in 320AD) to campaign onto the english homeland.

I did the same thing as you Jawa, and went straight to map making. Didn't manage to get the lighthouse either So, I lost about 3 galleys trying to find if I could get across anywhere. Once I found the passage to the english, I stockpiled mucho galleys and archers and then moved them all across at once. I lost about 1/2 to 2/3 of them to the treacherous waters. Going to keep losing that many until navigation comes along...

[Jawa Jocky]

I got feed up with this game. I set everything to wealth and just pressed enter til the end of the game. Lost SS. I never did find out what the advantage was, but not getting the GL was a huge problem.

[Catt]

Jawa Jocky - I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game. I think the map is a great idea! Essentially there will be no credible invasions until after Astronomy, and more realistically until the mid-industrial age. What I liked about ti is the human and every single AI has the exact same terrain / resources / opportunities / challeneges -- it provides for an excellent apples-to-apples comparison of AI civs, and also human skill and luck versus AI skill and luck PLUS the AI advantages on the higher levels.

I play Emperor more often than not (this game Monarchy), but I think Emperor with its 20% production bonuses to the AI would be very tough.

I think the "mini-advantage" that Sir Ralph alluded to is the human ability to "risk the high seas" whereas the AI will not take the chance. Without building the Great Lighthouse, the human player pretty much must launch a number of suicide galleys in search of contact (it would be the only way to keep up in tech against AI bonuses). I am confused as to how the Persians managed to reach you before you even finished Map Making -- they must have built the GL since there is no viable island hopping without the GL or suicide runs.

In my game (also Monarch) I also was beelining to Map Making at maximum science - I researched Writing, Pottery (or whatever the first level tech is that is a pre-req for MM), and then Map Making. I was able to build the GL before anyone else! I think the key to my success may have been researching Writing first - it took 40 turns (Pottery would have been similar - perhaps 32 turns) so even at "max" science (20% and then 10%) I was bringing in surplus cash. By the time I finsihed Writing and could go back for Pottery, I had a substantial treasury (deficit spending!) and many roads ($$ = science) + probably more than a couple of cities. End result is that I researched Pottery in something like 8 turns and MM in something like 12 or 16 turns. Had I gone Pottery (less expensive tech) and then Writing + MM (more expensive techs), I think the aggregate research time would have been much greater.

Building the GL meant contact with all 7 AI civs, while each of them stayed completely isolated from one another (I didn't sell contact until Astronomy came along). Contact with 7 civs meant my research costs were much lower than others' - the only way to build a lead before everyone starts discovering everyone else.

I will post a full summary of my game when I finish it (into the Modern Era now), but my conclusions after this game are different than yours - I think research is valuable, especially on this map and with a commercial civ, and I suffered through some pretty impressive AI seaborne invasions (though not as good as a human invasion, of course ).

Catt

[Jawa Jocky]

I edited my post to save face. Don't drink and Civ

[Catt]

Originally posted by Jawa Jocky
I edited my post to save face. Don't drink and Civ

I edited a portion of mine as well.

[Jawa Jocky]

Post should be posts (I'm not saving face I'm digging a deeper hole).

Catt - When I asked myself how I would re-play this game, the answer sounded just like your current game.

[Slax]

An interesting thing happened to me playing this game. I started at Regent (normally I play at Monarch). I was shooting for the Lighthouse on the tech tree, so I started building the Colossus so I could switch when I got map making. When the tech was close I had to remove workers to slow the Colossus builders. I guess they were impatient because even though the display said it would take 3 turns to complete, they finished it anyway! I felt this was a problem (although I normally love to get the Colossus), but it caused my GA. With the GA going I was easily able to get the Lighthouse and find all the civs.

Later, I'll probably wish I could get my GA during battle, but oh well...

[Theseus]

Sorry, posted this in the first thread:

Hey guys.

I haven't had a lot of time on my hands, but I did play through up to Industrialization last night.

I went Emperor, and didn't seem to have it so bad... I built out my two islands in a pretty typical fashion, missed the GL, and therefore burned up a number of Galleys exploring. Even so, I got way out ahead in communications... at one point I even used just comms to get a decent tech from Egypt (I forget which).

Went resource hunting on Germany, using Swords and Galleys... damn it hurts when they sink!!

I don;t know what the secret advantage is, other than the human ability to exploit an artificial distribution of resources, and the AI civs lack of credible resource defenses.

Something weird... prior to astronomy, Rome was able to access her resources!!

By the time all civs knew each other, and I had captured several resource islands... the fit hit the shan!!! I love it when the world goes insane!! Red lines everywhere, military alliance spaghetti... On the other hand, because there was so little early warfare (and in certain cases a lack of strategic resources ), none of the AI civs had a large standing military, and thus can't get it together to make a decent intercontinental attack. I think that there had only been one AI city capture (whereas I have captured 8).

I found it interesting that with the sea / ocean spacing so carefully designed, advances in military and naval tech matched each other well... Swords / Galleys, WEs / Caravels, Cavs / Galleons, so far.

It's fun, but also, as Catt said, a hugely-intensive trading and monitoring game. Checking every civ individually on every turn takes forever.

[Fighter]

Well, I think the advantage is Collosus. I started the game this afternoon (wussed out and started on Regent). Though I almost never build Collosus, I thought I would this time becuase I had nothing else of import and no upcoming wonders that I realy wanted. After getting Bronze Working, I had started to B-line it to Map Making, and When Colossus was done I used my Golden Age to pull Map Making and crank out the Great Lighthouse. Before the wonder, I circumnavigated my island staying only on coast, then did it again on see squares, colonized my side island and started moving.

With the added movement and safe see's I had no need to go suicidal with my fleet, I instead carefuly looked around, got in touch with everyone and thoughtfully kept that contact from anyone else, causing quite a few wars with me in the process. Oh well, the only threat from the wars was me losing my iron to the Germans since my original iron dried up about 3 turns after I built my harbour.

I think the golden age is what saved me, once I was on top and knew everyone I couldnt be knocked down because I had a tech lead.

I just took out the English "colony island", no iron or horses for them! I made peace with England, picking up Monarchy and 25gpt in the process, though it didnt matter since I was already in Republic. Now Im about to pick up Astronomy, it was either run that route or pickup Gunpowder and I basicaly flipped a coin.

The funny thing is looking at the civs that are on top tech wise, its me, then England, then Persia with Japan and Germany sitting at the bottom. Im realy amazed that England is so advanced this time around, which is why I launched my "invasion" force of 4 galley's loaded down with Longbowmen, Pikemen and Catapults.

That GA in the beginning had to have been the advantage,

as a side note, how many cities did you guys cram onto your banana? Onto your little side banana? I only put one on my side banana and 4 on my main one.

[Theseus]

Damn, didn't even think of that... I avoided the Colossus altogether. Well done.

7 cities on the main island, 2 on the little one.

I think this format, isolated civs with the same starting conditions, is highlighting the post-1.29 observation that tech is becoming a much more important issue in the relative evolution of both AI and human civs. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. It seems well balanced though... 1) The Ai won;t sell Nationalism for any remotely reasonable price, forcing the human to either research or extort it, and 2) the scientific era bonus seems to be a great balancer for the AI civs that might be trailing.

[Theseus]

JUST GOT IT!!!

Rome was freaking me out in that it had access to its resources... I just realized, they had the Great Lighthouse!!

I never knew this; it evidently allows commerce across sea / ocean tiles as well.

[Catt]

IIRC, 9 cities on the main banana, 1 on the junior banana.

Did the AI civs all build cities in the exact same locations on their islands in your games? They more or less did in my game which presents a very intersting set of circumstances: one would think that more or less the only reasons one or another AI civ would be jumping ahead or falling behind is: (1) bad luck with barbarians; (2) civ traits (and starting techs), particularly as those relate to scientific research; (3) AI "build often" preferences; (4) wonder success; and (5) different treatment by the human player. [Did you notice that Germany got shortchanged a luxury? But Germany, while behind for much of my game, is now one of the better positioned AI civs, having taken Cleo's resource banana late game].

At the time of Astronomy I was in the histographic lead, with most of the AIs bunched very closely together. I invaded Xerxes' resource island and then his mainland about this time (didn't invade until the time of Astronomy). What I found hilarious is that Elizabeth, as soon as she discovered Astronomy and could pump out a few caravels, launched a pathetic war of aggression against me, violating an RoP and a trade deal, IIRC -- her invasion force of 2 caravels was literally the first of any AI ships to leave their home waters, and she was using them to backstab a neighbor!

Hopefully a complete report from start to finish tomorrow or Friday.

Catt

[Taian]

Well, what started off good kind of took a southward spiral. Archers against pikemen just doesn't cut it

Two things though:

One, I want to keep trying it at diety (kind of skewed now since I already know that map..) and play around with different strategies. I tried beelining for map making and dropping 8 cities right away while researching. The 8 cities allows construction of the FP which I started immediately and switched to map making as soon as it was available. Still didn't manage to beat the stupid AI to the lighthouse though. Going for bronze working first is an interesting idea though...I'll have to play around with that one. The thing I come up against is at diety, both writing and map making require 40 turns to research; no matter what the slider is at (I checked it virtually every turn). While that allows for lots of gold to build up, it makes it frustrating to try and pin down the GL. Right now, I'm thinking the only way to get it is to be extremely lucky in hut tipping and get either writing or a settler from one of them.

Two, this format of game is pretty cool..everyone starting with the same resources. It would be interesting to try more of these.