Tweet
Figured I'd make a separate place to post results, and....you know...cuss me out in general when a gazillion Japanese and Chinese MA/MI/Marines land on your fair shores....
-=Vel=-
-=Vel=-
-
Too true. Lucky for me I sank most of them in their transports. I'll work on my AAR in the next while. I wish I'd been a little more on the ball -- I didn't take very good notes. Ah well, the drama was too much for me. -
Turn 1 went fairly well. I razed and withdrew on the russian front, and conscripted a MI in every city. On the german front, I bombarded the German hills across the front line and razed and withdrew from the plains square. With no road in those hills and the plains emptied out, Germany happily paraded his MA past two sectors of MA ZOC to park in the plains. Unbreakable was staffed with 4 elite MI and parked on the NW corner of the german front. The remaining mobile troops (including draftees) were liberally distributed among the 5 sectors I had to defend.
On turn two, I bombarded the german mountains. They are now limited to either striking through the two NW corner sectors or parking in the killsack of a plains sector. The russians chose almost entirely to attack the NW corner on their front, as well. I have destroyed the entire force that they brought to bear and am trying to decide where to send my remaining bombers and the various troops in my cities. The inland sea fleet has been dispersed a little bit, I hope this will not hurt me too badly, but I have destroyed most of the ships and subs in range, including the one transport in the area. I traded 1 sub for two german subs in the eastern ocean.
Since I haven't fired any nukes yet (ever), can somebody tell me if troops in the adjacent squares are damaged, or is the damage restricted to the center square?Comment
-
Good question, and be prepared for that! The blast radius of both your ICBM's and your Tacticals is the target square plus every square adjacent to it (nine tiles in all).
Puts a wampum big hurt on the badguys!
-=Vel=-Comment
-
All right, I admit it. This scenario is so much fun that I'm playing it again even though I won it once, and I helped testing it. Vel, I gotta tell you, I love this scenario. I don't have a lot of free time because my job is pretty time-consuming. Between work and spending time with my wife, there's very little. But this is addictive. The only thing to cut out is sleep.
So, after a 47-turn spaceship victory, why would anyone do this again? Why, but to go on the offensive. My goal is to both launch the spaceship and really smack around one (or more) of my opponents. We'll see if I get the chance.
Here's what's transpired so far:
Turn 1
I began by conscripting an MI in every city and moving those units to the front forts. On both fronts, I razed each non-RA fort. Though I considered bagging it and letting the bad guys have them, I decided to hold firm and fight to keep my RA. I distributed all my Washington units to the German front, and bombarded their roads leading into my territory.
I used the leader to create Magellan and contemplated rushing a few units, but given my experiences last game with money, I decided to hold. I then toppled the American Democracy, in a risky venture, and began an early transition to Republic. And, boy I got lucky, my anarchy period will last only 4 turns. Whew. Last game, when my government fell it was 5 turns around 3500 BC. It nearly killed me. This time, with conscription and only 4 turns, I think I'll be okay.
Of course, my theorizing doesn't matter if those mean Russians and Germans break through to oppress my people. On the Russian front, I shot down 10 bombers to the loss of 1 F-15. They took one fort with their last MA (who is very damaged...
).
The German attack went as advertised: I shot down 4 jet fighters and 5 bombers. With the roads eliminated, he had few options and managed to take no forts. He did, however, win a leader against me. Jerk. So, it'll be 5 armies instead of 4. Oh well.
Turn 2
I made a boo-boo. I forgot that workers move slower in Anarchy. Yikes. That means my roads will take longer to repair and I can't access those mountainous RA. Grrr. I also can't build railroads, since I severed my own Iron supply. I can only hope that this doesn't hurt me too badly.
I rebuilt my road link to the Russian front and retook my fort. No worries. I also killed off a Russian stack of 5 MA's with no protection -- I lost one MA in this attack and another because I got greedy and tried to knock out some MI nearby. After the first loss against the MI, I cut my losses and withdrew.
Germany left themselves in a pickle. They overextended themselves and left about 10 MA, total, in a position to be thwacked. Which I kindly did. And, to be ever-thankful surprise, Lee's Legion sent me someone capable of forming an army.
Last game I had one leader the whole game, so this is a very good start. Now, I have the Unbreakables and Army #2 in turn 2. Let's rock. I did lose an MA, but 10-1 win/loss ratio will work in early combat.
I distributed my fleets and moved all my MI to the hillforts on both fronts. Some of my bombers and naval units began clearing the inner sea -- taking out 4 Russian subs, 1 destroyer and a transport for no losses. I ignored the German inner sea fleet for now, and I'm trying to savage the Russians. As I was moving my MI, I noted another screw-up: I fired my RA at Germany from the forward hillfort I didn't raze in T1. So, I had to deploy army #2 there. The Unbreakables went to the Russian front. I also killed a Russian sub near New York and two German subs on the east coast.
On their second turn, the Russians got very lucky. He sent a Destroyer out of Moscow, which killed three of my subs. He couldn't see them, and so blundered into them. That is really annoying. Now the inner sea dynamic has really changed. He CM'd (2 CMs) a destroyer I left out in the open, but that was to be expected. It was a necessary sacrifice. On the land front, they pulled back from my numerous MI and there was no action there. They attacked through the air, too, and I shot down 4 more bombers. I can see their inner sea BB and remaining transport, and one on the west coast. They'll die. I think I'm really going to hurt Russia for their dastardly destroyer antics. I'll be watching for an opportunity to catch St. Pete or Moscow early. It's looking like the Russians will be my mark. Maybe a nuke to each in T3... ?
Germany was more aggressive and extended his carrier group south--they'll die next turn. I nailed 3 fighters and he shot down another F-15. I think I'll need some more of them soon. His attacks went around Army #2 in the forwardmost hillfort, and focused on the hill south of the plains. This afforded me plenty of ZOC hits, and he really didn't do much but leave plenty of MA to kill.
His inner sea fleet mostly sortied, and must die this turn. It'll mean that much of mine will too, but c'est la guerre!
As their turn ended and my turn 3 began, I had 3 global warmings all of which were forests turning into tundra. There is only one pollution in the game so far. Hmmph.
Well, that's all for now. I'll update more soon as I get a chance to play. And, this time, I'm taking notes.
BrinComment
-
Brinoch, I've seen something similar too, but wasn't sure (in my case, a destroyer bombed, and when running away bumped into a sub, which he sank). Do you have a save where that destroyer takes out the 3 subs? This sounds like a bug, I'd like to see it posted in the bugs thread... Human ships are only given one attack/turn, so the AIs shouldn't have 3.Originally posted by Brinoch
On their second turn, the Russians got very lucky. He sent a Destroyer out of Moscow, which killed three of my subs. He couldn't see them, and so blundered into them. That is really annoying. Now the inner sea dynamic has really changed.
Further: good luck in your second game, and keep us informed! I'm already planning on doing it a second time too, each turn I think: Oh now, next time I'll do that differently. This is really a learning game, and I intend to post a lot of notes on the game as well. But first I'll need some time to get through the first trial
DeepOComment
-
Outstanding, Master Brin! I must say that I'm having a whale of a time on it myself....didn't get a chance to do much testing while you guys were testing, so I've been doing my testing now...played out the first couple of turns a variety of different ways....VERY interesting!
-=Vel=-Comment
-
DeepO, I don't have a save, exactly -- since I wasn't expecting this or testing the game, I didn't save at the end of my turn. So, I have the after effects -- the Russian destroyer and I have the turn preceeding. I'll try and play the second turn again, only in the inner sea, to set up the parameters which resulted in this bizarre incident.Originally posted by DeepO
Brinoch, I've seen something similar too, but wasn't sure (in my case, a destroyer bombed, and when running away bumped into a sub, which he sank). Do you have a save where that destroyer takes out the 3 subs? This sounds like a bug, I'd like to see it posted in the bugs thread... Human ships are only given one attack/turn, so the AIs shouldn't have 3.
Will do. I'm gonna try and do a couple of turns tonight and a couple more tomorrow. Really detailed note-taking really adds to the time.Further: good luck in your second game, and keep us informed! I'm already planning on doing it a second time too, each turn I think: Oh now, next time I'll do that differently. This is really a learning game, and I intend to post a lot of notes on the game as well. But first I'll need some time to get through the first trial
Also, here is my save game, in 1910 BC, just before my 'victory'. If one can really call fleeing the scene of a war a victory. Check out the enemy forces. If you give them long enough, they'll rearm and rebuild their forces. Russia is back up to 25 MA from under 10, and Germany built 4 the last turn, from 1 then to 5 now. Take a look at the Stealths. I've been building forts to protects my luxuries from Russian stealths, and shooting a couple down each turn. Also, notice the spot where St. Petersburg used to be.
BrinComment
-
After 2 weeks of play I finally won the Alamo game last night, which is by far the longest time I spend on a Civ3 game. But, I loved every minute of it, and will play it again -- after I play a few normal games in which I can dominate the world, instead of being swept from the planet
. Even if one the primary goals of the scenario, being a space-race, was not fulfilled because the AIs refuse to build on their space ship, it truely was an epic game. The tension is always high, and if you mess up one turn, you would be hard pressed to recuperate.
I've learned a lot in this game. Not only many things on the AI, both their tactics and their weaknesses (for which I started the bugs-thread), but also how to handle naval combat, use air force appropriately, and how to scrap your own land to get to Alpha Centauri faster. I think that in a second run, I can pinch off at least 6-7 turns on the game because of what I learned now. A detailed game note file will be attached, together with the latest save, in here I will focus on the general story, strategies, tactics, and most importantly the things I will do better next time.
Initial turns
In the initial turn, I shifted my forces so I would be able to hold the first tier front line, or at least recuperate when the Germans and Russians attacked. I now think that this is not the best strategy, because you will lose a lot of troops in the process, but in one of the test runs the Germans broke through my defenses, and once they are through there is no way to throw them back. Further, I used the leader on Magellan, shifted production a little to have a reserve of MIs, ships, and drafted MIs in half of my cities (the least productive ones). I started researching the Laser (another questionable decision).
The Russians and Germans took 2 forts and 4 forts, which I was able to regain in the next turn. But I lost about half of my MIs and MAs in doing so. I started to carefully control the inner sea, focussing on the transports that appear. RA bombardment on the fronts is what saved the day, all airplanes that you want to use to bomb the hostile territory are shot down. Arrian's deception moves west, but I decide to keep Deep-O on the east coast in fear of a big Chinese invasion.
The following turn, I lost one Russian fort again, barely holding on on the German side. Meanwhile the Chinese are transporting from the West. On the East coast, a whole bunch of Chinese transports are sailing past their coast, and I tried to pick off a few of them, but was careful to not over-extend myself. These seem to be heading towards my west coast anyway.
In 3850 BC, I lost a German fort again, but in retaking it I gained a leader. The inner sea is now cleared, except for 2 Russians who fled to Moscow. Panama gets build in 3800 BC, and my first epic sea battle happens. Monsoon barely escapes, but lost most of its supporting ships. I retreat him to heal, and to regroup my other ships to get him a convoy again. First lesson learned: 3 supporting ships for a carrier is barely enough. I have to be more careful, the AI have a large number of ships, and if they can they will soften you up with hords of jets and bombers.
Consolidation in anarchy
3750 BC: Again I loose a German border fortress, and in order to keep my fort this time (after I retook it), I have to nuke the area. I killed a lot of troops, and damaged 2 armies, but another 4xMA army wasn't in reach. It is still very tense on the border, and I wonder how I can hold on.
the following turn, I nuke St. Petersburg, to keep the Russians from overrunning that border (destroy 3 armies, lots of troops and a few destroyers). The German border is easier now, but my people just revolted, and I will not have any reinforcements for the next 5 turns. Both the Japanese and the Chinese are moving stacks of ships towards my western border. The Japanese are coming with some 8 destroyers, the Chinese are sending transports and their nannies. I soften them up with bombardment, especially the Japanese, as I can't fight both stacks at the same time. Their ships return home to heal.
3650 BC: transport killing fest: I destroyed 6 Japanese, 1 German and 4 Chinese transports. The Chinese still have a few transports steaming towards my coast, but the problem is the Japanese: they have another big stack coming. The Enterprise crosses Panama for help. Next turn, I had to use Arrian's tactical as the Japanese were simply too close. Now I know I had another turn, as they will probably have rounded the cape going for my unprotected south, but I couldn't risk it. With the nuke and cleaning up afterwards, I destroyed 9 transports in one bang, together with their convoy. I had to take risks to get to the final ships (like using a 1 HP BS on a 1 HP destroyer), but it was worth it. The land battles are going smooth, even if several German armies are starting to appear.
3550 BC: Still very tense naval battles, picking off Chinese transports, while the Japanese are coming again. But this time they do not stack, but are spread out, which makes it a lot easier for my navy to sink them. I'm really starting to like air bombardment, with the 2 carriers on my East coast I can soften up most of my targets enough so that I don't lose any ships myself. Still, my naval presence is decreasing every turn. The Chinese are starting to build Aegis, which will be a problem for my nuclear subs. The rest of the AI will soon follow.
3500 BC: The Chinese transports would have reached land if they would have aimed for it, I'm lucky they are still following my borders to who-knows-where. I can't risk anything more, so I use bombardment to get all support to 1 HP, while shooting the transports from beneath them. I haven't got enough healthy ships anymore to destroy the destroyers, I hope next turn I can take care of those. But, I got some unexpected help: one of the destroyers was fired upon by my coastal fortress! The first ever time I see this happening.
3450 BC: finally the anarchy is over. The Japanese are arriving on my borders with armies and a bit of support, I guess they didn't want to risk these over the seas. Or they simply had too many troops to transport, another stack of transports is closing in on my east coast. If they would have headed for my coast directly, I wouldn't be able to catch them in time, luckily they are going to the South.
3400 BC: As my reinforcements arrive on the borders, I don't really fear the land battles anymore. But on the sea, things are different. A lot of my subs are sunk by Chinese Aegis, and I don't have any reserve ready. As a result I lose most of my scouting possibilities.
3350 BC: I finally decide to mobilize. A bit too late, I think...
Holding ground
The following turns, the naval battles stay tense, the AI keeps sending transports towards my south. Land battles are relatively uneventful. A few highlights:
in 3200 BC I start to build CMs, which will proof to be very handy to kill hurt ships inside the AI borders. I should have started a bit earlier, but so far I needed the inland cities to build up more MIs and MAs
in 3150 BC the Monsoon again barely escapes death (down to 1 HP, the rest of the convoy sunk)
3050 BC: I lost he Enterprise! It was to close to the Chinese border, and they bombed my support to 1 HP, so that the Enterprise was the defending ship... rebuilding another carrier and some F15s.
in 2950 BC I gained my first leader that I couldn't use: all the ship parts were build so far, and I wasn't allowed to have more armies. I had to use it on a BS on the East coast instead. Another big lesson: do not build ship parts early on, and build more cities so you can have more armies (I'm only allowed 4 of them).
2750 BC: Japanese ships bombed my New York airport... and I can't rebuild because of the mobilization. This comes at a bad time, I'm massing my F15s there to keep the Russian stealths away. Over the next 10 turns I build another 30 F15s, after which I finally regain air superiority of my own air space.
2710 BC: Aeson's pride sunk! I was getting a little overconfident, and the 2 elite BS, plus one hurt vet BS weren't enough to protect him. Damn. Building a new carrier.
2630 BC: Deep-O finally goes to the West coast, to prepare to take New Tokyo.
2590 BC: the 6th GL appears, who has again nothing better to do then to rush a BS.
On the offensive
In 2190, I'm finally ready to take on New Tokyo. Most of my Western navy (apart from a few guards near Chicago to keep Chinese transports out) converges in New-York. The last 2 turns, I didn't touch any of the Japanese Aegis that keep bombing my Russian border army, and with a reason. I want Deep-O's tactical to count.
2150 BC: I have 16 Japanese Aegis bombing my border, together with a few Russians. I try to have all of them hit in one turn, so they will retreat in one big pile towards New Tokyo. As I am playing the Americans against the Japanese, I want to use the Pearl Harbor tactic (okay, maybe not so nice, but damn effective ): I want the whole Japanese fleet in port when I use my tactical nuke on them. So I hit them with everything I got: all of my RAs move in range, all of my saved CMs fly, all the BS that can bombard a ship and still make it to the rendez-vous point with the carriers, Deep-O and the transport (with marines), and finally all my F15s and stealth bombers coming from New York and the 2 carriers. I manage to hit all but 2 of their ships, and the 2 Russians as well. I lost about 4 F15s to the St Petersburg air defenses, but every other fighter was shot down. Still, the sacrifice of my kamikazes won't be forgotten.
2110 BC: Everything goes like planned. The hurt ships ignore my convoy, and sail towards New Tokyo. The 2 ships I wasn't able to hit attack my convoy, taking out 1 BS. But no worries, I have enough of them left. I sail a little closer to New Tokyo, but as I wasn't able to land my troops in one swift turn, I hold for a moment.
2070 BC: New title of the scenario: Remember Pearl Harbor... Deep-O hits New Tokyo, taking out 18 Aegis, 2 BS, loads of jets, and all land defenses they had. My marines simply had to walk in to claim the prize, no resistance whatsoever. The rest of my troops land, I sell everything, and disband the city (ok, razing would have been more rewarding, but I needed the cash)
2030 BC: Dallas founded (I was going to name it Pearl Harbor in rememberance, but out of pure automatism I just hit enter when the naming dialog appeared. Maybe I should have renamed it...). Harbor rushed. Goals achieved
Endgame
The rest of the game was no problem whatsoever. I sold off all of my treasury to get to the last tech quickly, and only in the last turns realised that I coud have done that a lot faster if I would have sold improvements. Now, most of my cities were on wealth already, and I finished with very little in cash in 1870 BC (save of 1910 attached)
I was going to raze a Russian city for all the tension they had caused me, but I didn't had the troops to do it, I should have done it a bit earlier.
The last part (Thrusters) was build by a GL, which I very actively hunted for in the final 5 turns. I even attacked with paras, marines, and every other elite I could find. I managed to keep them relatively save (only using marines on landed paras, or when I hit 2 borderr patrols to 1 HP, which meant they would stay on the fortress).
One very noteworthy thing to mention: in 1990 BC, the Russians moved 8 RAs + 8 MIs in range of my border, and started to bomb me! If only they had done this a bit earlier, the border should have been more tense. As it is now, I only lost 2 armies during the whole game, with 8 RAs that could have changed drastically. They continued until the last turn to do it, but with little effect, of course.
And the last game point: 1950 BC: after attacking New Tokyo, I lost Deep-O in the first ever battle he was involved in
I also lost another carrier in the attack, which the Chinese were brilliant in setting up: They used over 10 stealths to bomb my convoy, finishing off with loads of Aegis. Deep-O was the first to defend, and nearly won... the carrier was next, and 2 further BSs went as well. Monsoon again survived, because a stealth hit it, and he was down to 2 HPs. The USS Monsoon was my only named ship to survive the game, but it was close for him 3 times. I guess at least one ship has to be lucky, I only wished it was my sub.
Improvements in next game
I will play this scenario again, in a few weeks time. But I will change my way of playing a lot... here are some lessons learned:
[list=1][*]Buid more cities early on. Right until the last turn, the available space is underused. Further, with the ongoing WW, you will have entertainers anyhow, which further adds to the open tiles. More cities will mean more armies, and more research and tax income, all very needed for faster ending[*]Mobilize fast to get the maximum out of it.[*]Build courthouses where needed fast, as mobilization will prevent it[*]More workers earlier, less F15s[*]Initially, retreat at least one front to the second tier (Germans?), this will save lots of MIs, which you do not have to rebuild. Of course, this will mean that you have to be extra careful to not loose a fortress, but I think it is worth it.[*]While in democracy, build up cash instead of beakers. In the last turns of democracy, steal the first tech (this will be easier then)[*]Try razing St. Petersburg fast (first few turns), as it will prevent fast healing of ships. Similarly, try razing the German closest harbor city fast (this will be more difficult)[*]Use of nukes in first turn? Moscow? Leipzig?[*]Early on, do more GL hunting. I was able to get 7 GLs in total, but 10 shouldn't be a problem in this game.[*]More care with carriers, Aegis and nuclear subs! Carriers cost too much when they go down with all the F15s on them. Aegis and nuclear subs are irreplacable.[*]Try to get New Tokyo faster, to have uranium for Aegis.[*]Initially, no building of ship parts, late game GLs will provide for that. Focus on offense instead[*]Build more CMs earlier, they are just perfect to take out hurt ships, and to have a reserve when that last transport proves to be indestructable[*]Use even bigger stacks of BSs. 3 full health BSs are not nearly enough when you encounter a stack of AI ships, certainly not when they can bombard you beforehand with bombers/stealths[*]Plan research better, so that you are not only broke towards the end, but you also sell off all improvements not really needed for research. You don't need harbors and airports when all your cities are on wealth. This will gain many turns on research.[/list=1]
DeepOComment
-
Congrats Deepo!!
I understand exactly how you feel DeepO. It's awesome once you through back those nasty invaders from your borders. And, then you look back at the wasted space, the wasted turns, and oh the wasted units.
I haven't had a lot of time to fully replay the scenario -- it just takes so long -- but I will.
BrinComment
Comment