Babylon and On - Spoilers and Strategy

[Aeson]

I decided to play through again without the Culture and Combined Forces sidetrack. I never finished the first game, had played until 1950 and was just getting disgusted at all my stealth bombers getting shot down

This time I followed roughly the same trading path, but had a few more opportunities to trade resources due to wars that were going on. I finished up the tech tree about 1780.

Instead of a massive buildup in forces, I tried incrimental warfare. It's a rather new way of playing for me, but it seemed better to hit the AI's early before they got completely entrenched. My first war was fought with just 3 Tanks and 3 Bowmen and a transport as my entire armed forces, to trigger a GA in a war against Russia.

I ended up taking most of the NE Island as the other Civs took turns declaring war on me for one reason or another. In taking Dallas, I also got a GL, which built an army so that I could build the Heroic Epic and Military Academy. This was probably the single biggest event in the whole game.

The 1800's I mostly just built up MA's, Transports, Battleships, and about 50 Radar Artillery. I fought a few small wars, taking the northernmost American Oil city, but not much else happening.

War broke out between everyone about 1850, and I decided to join in against Japan. Just about everyone was at war with 3 or 4 of the others, but Japan was at war with everyone. I took the 2 smaller Japanese Islands by myself, while nothing much happened on the mainland. I made peace with Japan and sent my forces to hit Russia.

By this time I was up to 60 MA's, 7 Armies built at the War Academy, and with the RA's and Battleships wearing down the cities with bombardment, I had very few losses in taking all but one of the Russian cities, the last one being taken by the Germans. Then I attacked Germany, signing a MPP with India who wasn't at war with anyone. The eastern German cities all fell quickly, and Berlin was mine, though I lost 2 of my Russian cities on the mainland to Germany. Then Japan declared war on India, triggering my MPP, and they took 5 of my undefended flank cities the first turn.

I quickly finished off the last few mainland German cities, and made peace. A leader rushed the Palace in Berlin, mostly to keep it from flipping as I wanted to keep the wonders (and magellan's nearby). The FP did a pretty good job of keeping corruption down on back home anyways. Then I turned my attention to Japan.

They were very weak from previous wars, they had no Oil, so their cities fell fast. I was up to 100 MA's, 80 RA's and 12 Armies, much of which was back home boarding transports to head to China. China had lost their Rubber and Aluminum trading partners in the war, so looked to be an easy target. A final leader in the Japanese war rebuilt the Palace another 8 tiles further east of Berlin, to better center it.

I signed ROP's with everyone, knowing that it would be my last chance to do so. Then I landed my second force in China and hit both of their Oil cities the first turn, taking 2 others as well. I lost almost all of my MA's in the first turn (no armies in this force), but had several MI's to hold my territory. A few turns later my first armies made it to China and I slowly took the continent.

My main force was positioned next to the Indian Rubber city, and a few others. After bombardment they still were tough to take, and I lost a couple Armies, but also built a few more with leaders from the fighting. I kept all the wonder cities, but disbanded the rest after recycling some settlers. India was quickly pushed off the continent, but still held onto 2 of their cities just NE of the Babylonian homeland. My only MA army on that Island died, not even denting it's target. I generated a leader and filled the army with MI's, and was able to take the last two Indian cities with heavy bombardment from Battleships and a few RA's.

China was still holding on, as the mountains made for very slow going. I started airlifting all of my new MA's to my American Oil city, and sent some MI's to hold the mountainous chokepoint in the middle of their territory. The Americans signed a MPP with France, but I decided to go ahead with the invasion anyways. As the last Chinese city fell, I had transfered most of my forces from former India to the American mainland. Made it just 1 turn before my ROP's expired.

I had over 100 MA's now, 17 Armies, and almost 100 RA's, almost all my forces on American soil. The first turn I took Washington and New York, but the American's broke through my chokepoint, taking control of one of their Aluminum. They had no Oil though, as I now controlled all but one source in the world. They had plenty of MI's saved up though, and I had all my RA's bombard each city before sending in the armies. I still lost a few armies against cities on hills, but the conquest was relatively quick. The Americans did hit me with a nuke, so I responded, and all my homeland cities switched to ICBMs to finish off the French and Germans (still had 3 island cities) when the time came. I wasn't paying attention to the tile count, and triggered domination just after taking the last American city though, but I did use a few ICBM's that turn.

The combination of getting my GA very early, and a leader from early fighting proved to be key in this try. Having 4 MA armies when I first started seriously fighting made a huge difference. Instead of losing 2 or 3 MA's on each defending MI, I just hit them with an army and then mopped up the weaker defenders with my MA's. In my first game I had built up a force of almost 300 MA's by 1950, but hadn't done any real damage with them because they just bounced off the defending MI's, my Stealth Bombers rarely doing any damage, and getting shot down more often than not. It's too bad that combined forces don't really work, because it was pretty fun in the first game building up 50 Helicopters loaded with Paratroopers and Marines, My 20 Carriers loaded with Stealth Bombers and Jet Fighters, and a diverse navy, not just Transports and Battleships. It just wasn't useful...

[Transcend]

Where can I get this particular scenario? Sounds like a great challenge.

[Harovan]

You can get it here. And yes, it is a great challenge!

[jshelr]

We had some feedback on the population needed for domination victory.

Q: There is a little confusion about whether there is a population requirement for domination as well as land area requirement. Both the manual and MapStat
seem to say there is a pop requirement. But the info available during the game does not mention it. We had a tourney result that was a close call and would just like to know for future reverence. Thanks

A: Yes, you have to have percentage domination in both land area and population
to win a domination victory. It didn't make it into the manual because it
was a late addition. I thought it was listed in the Civilopedia,
though....I'll have to look into that.

Thanks,

Barry Caudill
QA Manager
Firaxis Games

[dawidge]

Now that I wrapped up my mtIII game, I can tackle mtIV.

Gee, Vel, don't do us any favors...

• We're almost an era behind in tech.


• We're not railroaded except for an intercity network.


• We're not even irrigated.


• We have only a handful of workers.


• Even if we could build cavalry, which we can't because we have neither horses nor saltpeter, they'd get crushed against MI (everybody else is already working on SETI.


• We have absolutely no navy, not even a couple of galleys to upgrade to transports eventually.


• We have Replaceable Parts, but our best (only) defenders are Riflemen, so we have to spend money on upgrades.

On the plus side...

• We (will) have three oils at our disposal.


• The core southern cities are almost completely developed.


• Lots of coastal cities for building invasion fleets.


• No corruption.


• Hefty positive gpt.

A challenging, but not impossible scenario. I just hope we have aluminum. Otherwise, this is a game I'd pack in and chalk up a loss. It reminds me of the greek game I should have given up on when I first tried to go past Regent to Monarch (no oil, no aluminum and MI in every AI city... I burned up a *lot* of marines, cavalry and infantry trying to eke something out of that game before my rubber and saltpeter vanished in the same turn... three turns after that, Cathy launched).

I played through 1585 three times to get a feel for the country, its environs, and the geopolitics. There are four big priorities:

• Trade for tech. Researching Refining would cost 125gpt for 20t. I can buy it *much* cheaper and get it immediately. Win-Win.


• Boost revenue. More revenue means more tech for gpt deals. This takes RRs and population. Sanitation will have to be high on the list of things to buy. We'll need granaries to boost the population growth and irrigation to support more people. We already have markets everywhere and banks enough to be building Wall Street.


• Improve the northern infrastructure. Banks, Aqueducts, Hospitals, Coal Plants or Solar (when available).


• Beef up defenses so we don't appear weak. This will probably have to wait until we get Computers so we can jump our Rifles directly to MI.

I set up the build queues to work on a granary, pump out another worker, then finish up infrastructure and started railroading with a vengeance, starting with the flat, open sectors since I go do them twice as fast as hills/forest. I sent them north and started working top-down. I probably should have started in the south, but I didn't think as far as which cities had people working sectors that needed rails.

I turned off tech production and tried to eke out as much as I could from trading. I didn't even *think* to try trading away "0 avail" resources, though. I really have to remember to do that. Tops on the list are Abe and Joan, who have luxuries we can use, and Cathy, who will need the oil we're about to find out about. ObRant: I really wish the trade advisor could tell us what resources the other civ needed.

• Dyes&Refining from Abe for Incense, WM, 38 gpt


• Ivory&Atomic Theory from Joan for Incense, 42 gpt


• Steel&Electronics from Cathy for oil, WM, 37gpt


• Sanitation from Tokoguwa for WM, 5gpt, 180g

And after a few turns pass, the RRs are already paying off and the deal with Bis has expired...

• Combustion from Ghandi for Incense, WM, 28 gpt


• Mass Production from Bismarck for WM 50g, 38gpt

I have deals going with every civ, which should secure us a fair period of peacetime to join the first world countries.

In the second round of trading, I nab MT, Flight, Radio, Rocketry (free with era change, and we have trashcans!), Amphibious Warfare, Computers, and Ecology plus more Dyes, furs, and Ivory. All this in exchange for Oil (Cathy and Ghandi), Incense (Abe, Joan, and Ghandi), 123gpt and a couple of maps. I am one tech shy of my target of Techs I Must Have and can already begin work on upgrading my defenses. I'm not sure exactly who started it, or when, but Most of the World is dog-piling on Russia. She'll soon lose her ports, which will make me look bad (Rant) for "breaking the trade treaty".

In 1720, just as I have exceeded my 1000gold Wall Street nest egg and can start upgading to MI, Germany demands a territory map and 26 gold. They're absolutely no risk to me, but they don't know that. I refuse and war breaks out. My workers are all automated by this point (SHIFT-A) and I already have 1 MI in every city.

By 1750, I have 3 MI in every city and Abe (America is the only civ who'll trade with me on a per turn basis, now) sells me Synthetic Fibers. I start work on MA, transports, and BBs. In the next few turns, Germany manages to arrange a schism and World War I is in full swing:
Germany, France, and Japan vs. Babylon, America, India, and China. The Russians, while not yet boat people, have been reduced to a handful of outposts by Germany and America.

In 1774, my first opportunity for Greatness comes along. France takes Los Angeles and Chittagong! I quickly shift my two BBs and lone trannie up to the northernmost city, and in 1778 5 MA + 3 MI land outside LA. The next turn, I take LA, negotiate an ROP with India, and take Chittagong, losing two MA in the process. I had the distinct pleasure of running a french GL under the tracks of my armor. With no resistance in either city, I buy temples straight away. I hope I'll be able to combat the culture from the Indian and American cities on this island. The next turn I buy libraries. and send my ships south to Nineveh. By the time they get there, I may be able to reload the transport. If I'm lucky, I can take all of her home island and isolate her to her beachhead at the German-American border then wring her dry of tech. All other cities have side-tracked from any infrastructure improvements to pump out war materiel: 2 more transports, 2 bowmen, and MAs.

It's at this point that I read the spoilers thread and saw how much better I could have done in the tech trading. I don't seem to be doing badly on the warfare side of things, though. My military ability has kept pace with my infrastructure comfort level. I'll just take it one turn at a time and see how things develop. Finishing the tech tree, without conflict, before 1780? Aeson, you da man! I'm tempted to restart right now, but I think I have a workable game going. Obviously, my playstyle is sub-optimal compared to some of you, but it seems to do the job for me.

... and an update from the time between when I wrote this and when I was ready to post it.

In 1786, my aluminum disappeared and France sank both BBs. Some quick wheeling and dealing put me in MPP/ROP with China and I'm trading Oil and Incense for Furs, Aluminum and 16gpt from Mao. Germany, given a choice between taking two Indian cities that have been nuked to oblivion and attacking Chittagong, lands two elite MA next to Chittagong. I trade one Vet MA for two elites and get a promotion to elite for one of my MA in the process.

In 1792, America launched a surprise attack on LA, losing two MA in the failed attempt to batter my MI. Strasbourg falls to my MA in 1794, killing two BBs and a bunch of planes. I buy peace from Germany and France and rush an airport in LA.

In 1798, I declare war on India (down to 3 cities) and take Bengal. I'm hoping that I can bring them to the negotiation table for their techs.

[Txurce]

Work in progress.

Please ignore this post - I'm screwing around trying to post screenshots!

[Txurce]

A RECAP (1830-1870)

Babylon’s first war was with the French, a superpower with no reserves to speak of after a tough war with Japan. The war was a complete success, with France eliminated by the end of 1842, still leaving Babylon a technological midget, but third in size and output. Babylon then set about rebuilding its forces, having lost 39 of 66 MA in the war.

THE WORLD WAR (1872-1908)

In 1872, America, India and China all declared war against the Germans, and Babylon involuntarily joined in. With these four nations aligned against Japan as well, Babylon’s plan to invade neighboring China were postponed indefinitely. The goal wasn’t so much to scavenge German and Japanese territory as to make sure no one civ conquered itself into a dangerous size.

Babylon took a few Japanese offshore cities, and as the Indians reduced the spent Japanese empire – civs pay a price for constant warfare! – Babylon found itself the largest country on the planet by 1882. It was imperative to limit the Indian gains on the largest continent, however, and in 1900 a Babylonian expeditionary force barely beat them to Berlin, and its five very powerful GWs. Suddenly Babylon found itself with both the Pyramids and Longevity, as well as Sun Tzu and Universal Suffrage, not to mention Smith’s. In 1904, Babylon decided to kick off its Golden Age, and wiped out the reeling Germans in 1908. Japan wasn’t doing much better: only one city left on the continent, and a few on islands.


Babylon's new French holdings, circa 1844:

[Txurce]

TARGET: INDIA (1910-1930)

In 1922, Babylon made peace with the almost-eliminated Japanese, and built religious improvements in its conquered cities. It also signed MPPs with China and America, because there was no question that India had to go. It controlled everything on the big continent east of the Berlin bottleneck, and the island northeast of Babylon. In 1928, Babylon built its Strategic Missile Defense system, gaining a large measure of security as it finally caught up in wartime technology.

The Indians had a healthy military, heavy in MI, with a much larger navy than Babylon. Unlike the exhausted France, Germany and Japan, they would not be a complete pushover. The plan was to build a defense perimeter in the mountain bottleneck just east of Berlin, while it cleaned up the Indian cities to the west in the old German territory, and blitzed the island just off Babylon. By the time India reacted, it would be at war with the rest of the world, and babylon would soon be able to focus on the Indian homeland.

THE INDIAN WAR (1932-1962)

In 1932 Babylonian spies stole the map with all of the Indian troop positions, leading to a declaration of war. The three Indian cities west of Berlin fell with our initial onslaught, and Babylonian armor made two beachheads on the Indian island. When the Indians counterattacked in the mountains near Berlin, China and America declared war against them.

That mountain counterattack was the Indians’ only sustained offensive foray. The island cities fell by 1946, when the Babylonian Golden Age ended. Using three armies as battering rams, the Indian home cities fell one by one. Babylon moved steadily, abandoning the metropolises, pacifying the rest. It didn’t take long for China and America to begin their scavenging. With India down to one far-off city in 1962, Babylon declared peace, and once again built temples and new cities.

1932: Defenses west of Berlin, one turn after three cities fall to the east. Note invasion force by Kohlhapur (SW):

[Txurce]

THE CHINESE WAR (1964-1973)

In 1956, Babylon renewed its MPP with America, but not with China. It also began to divide its forces into two battle groups: the main force that would invade China from Babylon, and the remainder, which would clean up the rest of the scattered Chinese holdings. Battle Group China was spearheaded by four size-four armies, rushed in time for the invasion.

In 1964, as India expired, Babylon struck China. As expected, the miscellaneous Chinese cities steadily fell to combination of Stealth bomber/armor attacks, MA army attacks, and simple MA superior forces. The Chinese were down to one island apart from their homeland by 1967. The homeland was invaded in the south, with our armor landing in the mountains. The Babylonian strategy was to destroy all of the huge Chinese cities, and build new ones as their forces moved north like locusts.

The Chinese invaded Babylon with one transport of mixed forces, but these units were quickly eliminated. Their superior navy wore down our cruisers, but no transports were lost. China also had a superior air force, but again, it was not a factor at all against the dominance of massed MA. By 1970, China had only a couple of MI in each city. Babylon no longer needed to raze what it captured. In 1973, China collapsed.

DOMINATION (1972-1974)

Eager to achieve domination over the globe, Babylon didn’t wait for the last Chinese city to fall before knocking America off the largest continent. Taking one island nearby put Babylon over the top in 1974.

OBSERVATIONS

For a series of reasons, I researched much slower than anyone else reporting on their games, not reaching Missile Defense until 1928. But the reality is that modern armor, properly used, is almost all you need to win, even a scenario like this one. While I suffered significantly less losses when using combined arms, my production was great enough to make me feel like I could advance faster, despite taking more losses, by primarily building modern armor. What mitigated my relative lack of air power and artillery is my armies, which may have numbered ten by the end of the game. A key here was my decision to rush them once I quit researching. I never had that many MA –95 at the end – but the armies couldn’t be stopped.

Equally important was getting a fast start, invading France in 1830, which left me #3 in size by 1842,and en route to #1 forty years later. I don’t employ overwhelming force, but the “just enough” approach, which allows for multtiple theaters of operation. Also, I always try to ready my next attack while wrapping up the present one, rather than reloading my guns, so to speak.

Finally, I chose my targets carefully, making sure I was at war with only one country at any one time, with allies in every one of these wars, and selected my opponent based on who I didn’t want to get any bigger. This sometimes meant killing the little guy before someone else did, or killing the big guy before he got any bigger. Circumstances led me to fight someone unexpected in every case until my last real war, with China.

1974: Domination, maybe three turns short of first place on the histograph:

[Velociryx]

Way to go guys! If you liked that one, I'll see what other shenanigans I can whip up!

-=Vel=-

[jshelr]

Bring it on!!

[Txurce]

Once again, Vel, the effort you put in is greatly appreciated. Apart from getting a chance to play with a lot of tanks, I enjoyed the opportunity to generate a modern-day strategy from relative scratch. I look forward to any other challenges you may cook up.

[Velociryx]

Okay....this is me shopping 'round for some ideas....what sort of situation would you guys chomp at the bit to claw your way out of?

Camelot? A smallish civ, stuck in the middle ages, taking on Industrial giants?

Space Race? Well underway....you're way behind, and looking to steal the win?

Losing end of a war? - the game opens in (era of your choice), and you take the helm of a dying empire. Embroiled in wars on numerous fronts and losing ground in all?

Something else entirely?

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Camelot would be about the same as this one, so that might not be the best idea. I'd like the space race more, it is something new from the MTs as they happened so far: it all has been about conquering, warring, being offensive. It might be a good idea to try to defend for a while, while hoping to escape this world, I'd like that very much.

But the losing end of a war also has some appeal, but only if it is a very desperate situation. At least half of the praticipants should be overrun in a few turns, and basically the goal should be to stay on this planet the longest possible (instead of winning the game, the one who doesn't loose for the longest time wins). Some special rules could apply, for instance you are not allowed to make peace with anyone...

Other ideas, well, looking at how well this game turned out (I'm still playing it, hope to end it this weekend. Damn long turns ) I wouldn't dare to come up with something of my own. It wouldn't live up to the challenge!

DeepO

[Velociryx]

Yeah...I was kinna jazzed about the space race one myself....be a bit of a trick to set up, but should be doable....in order to increase flexibility and options, but make it not impossible, I'll need to not research all the requisite techs to build everything....Hmmm...yeah, I'm kinna digging that. Will take more time to set up, but should be doable....

As to the losing end of the war....we'll call that one the Alamo simulation. I'll try and arrange a situation where there's really no hope of winning, with the goal simply being to hang on for as long as inhumanly possible. A pity there's no way in the game to track number of units lost/killed...that'd be one heckuva good measure in a game like this.

So....for a game setup like that, we should say: No peace. Fight to the death?

Or....should we set it up such that you can do what you can to make peace, with the goal being to dig yourself out of the pit the disasterous wars got you in, and then try for the win?

-=Vel=-