Babylon and On - Spoilers and Strategy

[Catt]

I didn't have the time to play minitourney IV (and had some qualms about playing a game form the midpoint - although I guess with scenarios coming I better get used to it) but it seems like everyone had great fun.

I cetainly really enjoyed (and learned from) reading this spoiler thread even though I didn't play, which is unusual for me -- I have never before really enjoyed reading spoiler threads from tourneys / GOTMs in which I didn't play (except for Zachriel's and Sulla's GOTM recaps). Great job all, and I think I will save the game to play later (since it appears to present a real WW3 challenge).

I am only chiming in to say that I too have experienced the "phantom war" bug. It was some time ago (could have been 1.17f) and I don't have a save, but I certainly remember being surprised to see that I was at war with X -- and then reloading to see that neither I nor he/she declared war; we were simply at a state of war without explanation after having finished the previous turn at peace.

Catt

[jshelr]

Vulture

You are right to question the population requirement. The winning conditions in the electronic info available as you play does not mention population. The manual does and the Map program does. They may be out of date if this requirement was changed.

I finally got XP to let me run the map program. With the amazing new XP I can do things in only an hour that would have taken me 5 minutes tops in windows.

It showed that I was a few tiles short of a full load on domination. I was way short on the population requirement. So, my game is not a test of whether population matters. Lost fair and square.

[Aeson]

I think it would have to be an either/or requirement, probably don't need both population and territory to trigger domination.

[Txurce]

Since I have accepted my unwanted war with Germany and subsequently exterminated them, what are the square-mileage requirements for domination? (Mapstat doesn't run on my Mac.)

[alexman]

1484 tiles is the domination limit for this game.
This includes coastal tiles but not sea tiles.

[jshelr]

I think Turxce want's the land area reading from f11 that applies when you hit domination?

I'm on the road and can't get the info. Vulture should have it, however.

Apparently, you need nearly everything but France according to Vultures screen shot.

[Txurce]

Thanks, guys. That works out to 148400 sq. miles, for those who haven't figured out (as I just did) that one tile equals 100 square miles.

For that matter, one pop equals 10,000 people.

These highly complex calculations are based on extrapolations from starting one city at 4000BC and hitting F11.

[alexman]

By the way, the F11 report includes sea tiles. Domination does not include those. So you have to subtract all the sea tiles from the total given by F11 to get your territory that counts against domination.

Something tells me your next computer will be a PC!

[Txurce]

Thanks, A. There were no sea tiles in my 4000BC city, so the ratio works out, in this case. But I guess your point is that when F11 tells me I have 142k sq. mi., I won't quite have domination within reach yet.

I think Apple will have to go out of business for me to consider switching... although I consider your point ALL the time!

[Harovan]

Just hit the year 1800AD. Babylon is the 7th in the World ranking. India is last, because they were reduced to 1 city by a lot of wars. Scientifically we are about even with America, have a lead of 3 techs before Russia, but are 2 techs (Laser and Stealth) behind of the rest. France, India and Babylon are Democracies, Russia is a Republic, everybody else has Communism.

MPP alliances exist between Japan and Germany, Germany and France, France and India. America is at war with Japan, France and China, everybody else is at peace.

Babylon has mobile forces of 4 MA, 23 Tanks, 16 MI's (+1 in each city: 15 more), 4 Battleships, 4 Transports, 1 Carrier, 4 Nuclear subs, armed with Tactical Nukes. No air force yet. Currently upgrading my tanks to MA's and building 4 ICBMs. My gold reserves are 1000 gold, which I need to keep maximal interests. Still no desire to participate in a war, unless somebody is badly beaten, in which case I would join the winners. A war would not be for my benefit, because I trade for 5 luxuries to keep my people content, and still depend on the export of oil and incense.

Future plans are, to build up till about 1900. At this time, probably, the end of the tech tree is reached. I will sell all libraries and universities then, as the only good they did was to produce my culture. I should be able to support a big army then. This probably will be the time to lit the torch for a WWIII.

Here are the main events, trades and wars.

1570AD	Am: Refining | Incense+WM+13pt+189
	Ja: Steel | Incense+WM+19pt+9
	Ru: Atomic Theory+1pt+17 | Oil
1590AD	Ge: Combustion | Incense+WM+4pt+476
	In: Mass Production | Oil+20pt
	Japan and Germany sign a MPP
1600AD	America declares war on the French
1605AD	Am: Dyes | WM+13pt+9
	Japan and Germany declare war on India
1610AD	Founded Kish at the coast SE of Ur
1615AD	Fr: Motorized Transportation | WM+32pt+147
1620AD	Founded Nippur at the southern tip
	Founded Shuruppak S of Lagash
	Russia and Germany sign an alliance against India
1630AD	Founded Zariqum in the hills in the center
	America and Germany sign an alliance against India
	China and Germany sign an alliance against India
1660AD	France and Germany sign a MPP
	Germany declares war on America
	France declares war on India
	Japan and Germany sign an alliance against America (Wow! What a diplomat Bismarck is!)
1670AD	Am: Flight | Incense+WM+38pt+13
	Ja: Radio | Incense+WM+37pt+12
	Babylon enters the Modern age and gets Rocketry for free.
	Our first 2 Tanks are built
	China and Germany sign an alliance against America
1675AD	Germany demands our TM and 70 gold. We give in. Not ready for a war yet, by far. And no desire to be the target of Bismarcks crazy alliances.
1690AD	In: Fission | Incense+Oil+WM+20pt+123
1700AD	Russia and India sign a peace treaty
1710AD	Ch: Cancelled Furs | Incense
	Ch: Furs | 2pt+243
	Ge: Wines | Incense+1
	Am: Dyes | WM+15pt+15
	America and India sign a peace treaty
1730AD	America and France sign a peace treaty
	France and India sign a peace treaty
	China and America sign a peace treaty
1735AD	In: Ecology | WM+70pt+362
	Ru: Computers | Ecology+WM+195
	Japan and India sign a peace treaty
1745AD	France declares war on India
	France and Russia sign a MPP
1750AD	France declares war on America
1754AD	We sign a RoP with India
1758AD	Fr: Uranium | Incense
1760AD	India and Germany sign a peace treaty
	America and Japan sign a peace treaty
1762AD	Japan and Germany sign a MPP
1766AD	Founded Sippar at the southern tip of the island NE of ours.
	In: Space Flight | Incense+85pt; Denying Gandhi Oil, because he has only 1 city left and is under siege.
	China and India sign a peace treaty (damn!)
1768AD	France and India sign a peace treaty(damn again!)
1770AD	In: 520 | Oil; used to finish the upgrade Inf->MI
	France and Germany sign a MPP
1772AD	Ch: WM+27pt | Incense
1774AD	America and France sign a peace treaty
1776AD	Ru: WM+Sanitation+Amphibious War+Espionage | Iron
	Ch: Furs | WM+298
	Ge: Wines | WM+Incense
	Am: Dyes | WM+17pt+5
1778AD	Ru: Satellites+3 | Oil
1780AD	Japan and Germany sign an alliance against America
1782AD	Babylon is now a nuclear power (first 2 tactical nukes)
1784AD	Ge: Silks | WM+9pt+277
1786AD	Fr: Superconductor | WM+123pt+283
	Ch: Nuclear Power+266 | Superconductor
	Am: Synthetic Fibers | Superconductor+73
	France declares war on America
1790AD	Russia demands Synthetic Fibers. We decline. Nothing happens.
1794AD	America and Germany sign a peace treaty
	Japan demands TM+76 gold. We give in.
1796AD	One of our 3 Oil source depletes. We can't build armor anymore, till the next trade deal ends.
	America and Russia sign a peace treaty
1798AD	We discovered a new source of Uranium. The deal with France thus can be cancelled.
	Fr: Ivory+WM+40 | Incense.
	India and France sign a MPP.

And a minimap:

[vulture]

For domination I had to get to 180,000 square miles, more or less. I don't remember the exact figure (and since you go from being somewhere under the domination limit to possibly being a fair bit over it in one turn, the exact number is hard to come by). 175-180,000 ought to do it.

[Txurce]

That's a lot of square miles, Vulture. I've been the biggest civ since about 1875, but I'm not even half way to the magic number in 1920.

[vulture]

Originally posted by Txurce
That's a lot of square miles, Vulture. I've been the biggest civ since about 1875, but I'm not even half way to the magic number in 1920.

Don't sweat it too much. In 1980 I only had the original island plus China. Not even close to half way. I still got enough land in a shade over 50 years (1980 was pretty much when I started the all out warmongering). From 1920 it's easily do-able I imagine.

[Harovan]

Small intermediate report:

It's 1856AD, and I just finished my first war. I joined and finished the collective beat-up of America, and took the southern part of their island. Currently cleaning their former land, it was awfully polluted, because they did not clean at all during the long war. My strike was short and decisive, took all in all only 3 turns, from a small bridgehead city I had founded on their southern tip.

A few observations:

- The AI attacks with Mech Infantry, although it could attack with Modern Armor. That's bad for it, but good for me. I'm sure that will be tweaked with the next patch.

- Instead of softening up city defenses, the AI uses Stealth Bombers to raze tile improvements. That's pretty lame.

- For some reason, nobody wants to make per-turn trades with me anymore, although I was very careful not to break any treaties. Even when one of my oil sources depleted, I had to suffer and not my trade partners. What's going on here?

I managed to get a GA, killing a Longbowman with a Bowman. Using it to halfway keep up in science (because of the collective per turn trade boycott). There's only 5 techs to go in the tech tree, and the last (Genetics) doesn't even count, because it's lame.

Finally, a minimap.

[Harovan]

geez, DP