AU Mod: Printing Press

[pvzh]

Maybe punkbuss refers to stock AI because in AU Printing Press frequently gets researched before Education.

[Dominae]

Well, that would not fit with his description, where the AIs researched all the way up to Gunpowder and did not even have Printing Press yet.

[punkbass2000]

Well, yes, I do often beeline for PP. I don't see how it is any more of an exploit than Writing. Understanding what the AI does is part of playing against it. Automate everything, and you'd likely not be able to beat Regent. Here's an example from AU 601:

" I checked around after getting theo. + eng. from the Carths, and was able to get inv. but no other techs. I noted that only the Egyptians had PP, while 2-3 civs had edu., most had gunpowder and everyone had chivalry, so I researched PP as fast as possible without a deficit (6-7 turns), then traded it around for the three above techs + a bit of gold. I then was able to see that nearly everyone has chem., while the Egyptians have that, astro. and MT, so I'm now researching Banking with an ETA of 6 turns."

I can get more on larger maps, and the fact that I already had few of the techs wasn't a huge factor, I probably could have gopt those anyway, as they would be well-known and cheap. I have heard about this whole thing not working with the AU mod, and I'm not sure why, but have not, as yet experienced it outside of the TSG 2, which I'm not directly playing. In any case, the above quote was from an AU mod game and all AIs had Gunp. before PP except Egypt, who was the leader and may well have had Gunp. first as well. I'm not saying PP is sure thing, but it's often a pivotal tech in my games. AS to not being "useful", I find none of the techs listed particularly useful other than Edu. I don't fight much, so Feud./Chiv. aren't needed immediately (I often don't even get Chiv.) Eng. is mildly useful but not enough to research it myself. Inv. is nice, but again, not that nice, and same for Gunp. I don't beeline to MT either. Not sure what you mean by "branch lead", exactly. PP is the best non-militaristic way to get tech parity and then lead, IME.

"IMO you should have a reason to research all techs for their intrinsic value, independently of your knowledge of "what the AI will research next"."

And, IMO, the AI shouldn't need extra units and other bonuses to beat me at higher levels, but those are the breaks. People learn from game to game, the AI plays turn to turn. That's just the way it is. As good as Writing is in terms of preqs, you'd never research it first if it weren't for the fact that the AI almost always researches it last and its expensive and can be done by 1750BC for only 1 gpt. These all exploit game mechanics and are, IME, considered optimal and nearly essential manoevueres for high-level play. Not absolutely required, of course, but generally yield better results.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Well, yes, I do often beeline for PP. I don't see how it is Not sure what you mean by "branch lead", exactly. PP is the best non-militaristic way to get tech parity and then lead, IME.

Funny, I do just fine up to and including Deity without ever researching Printing Press.

And, IMO, the AI shouldn't need extra units and other bonuses to beat me at higher levels, but those are the breaks. People learn from game to game, the AI plays turn to turn. That's just the way it is.

Ah, but this the AU mod, where we actually try to improve things. "Those are the breaks" that the Philosophy beeline is the right move 90% of the time, and the AU mod has addressed that (successfully or not, you decide). And so for many other non-strategic elements of the game. Whether or not Printing Press is all you make it out to be, I stand by my statement that a tech that exists solely to help the human player get back in the tech game is the sort of thing the AU mod should address. It's great that you've learned the ins and outs of the stock game, but the AU mod wants players to think harder.

As good as Writing is in terms of preqs, you'd never research it first if it weren't for the fact that the AI almost always researches it last and its expensive and can be done by 1750BC for only 1 gpt.

Actually, because Writing is so good in terms of prerequisites (notably, for Philosophy) I research it all-out despite the fact that I know I could potentially still get it at a 50-turn pace. I do this because: 1) I know that the rewards of getting to Writing's further goodies earlier are worth the cost in Commerce, and 2) I know that if the AI beats me to it I can trade for it at much reduced cost. It's the fact that Writing actually does something (namely, it leads to other, useful techs - whatever those "uses" may be) that causes me to research it without any qualms about the fact that it does next-to-nothing in and of itself. If Writing were to lead nowhere (i.e. it would only allow Embassies), your comparison to Printing Press would be valid, because then it's value would only be the (exploitative, non-strategic) returns I could get by trading it around to all the AIs.

These all exploit game mechanics and are, IME, considered optimal and nearly essential manoevueres for high-level play. Not absolutely required, of course, but generally yield better results.

The thing is, the AU mod wants to introduce strategy at all levels of play. Furthermore, the very fact that these manoeuvres are "optimal" and "nearly essential" sort of goes against what the AU mod is all about (see above). It would be great, IMO, if the stock game were not so full of optimal plays.

[Theseus]

Writing / Philo need to be de-valued.

A thought: 'Monarchy beeline' should be enhanced? (Thought sponsered by Dom's upcoming AU game...)

[joncnunn]

This is definately straying from the original topic, but I think going into the editor and increasing max resarch time to as high as the editor will allow would go a long way towards elimiating the human exploit of 1 science beaker per turn towards Writing.

And if the Philospachy to get Republic is still too powerful, the bonus tech could be elimatinated and the tech values of those two techs restored.

The Monarchy beeline pretty much describes stock AI playing a religious civ behavior.

[alexman]

IMO the best way to make Printing Press more attractive is to considerably weaken the Republic.

[pvzh]

back to government design
* at alexman *

[joncnunn]

Strengthing Democracy might also work, but might need something really big like it's own version of an extra FP to entice players by itself.

Another option would also be reducing the anarchy penalty, but that would be huge. There's no place to squeeze in a corruption level that's twince as bad as stock Despotism on the editor.

Originally posted by alexman
IMO the best way to make Printing Press more attractive is to considerably weaken the Republic.