AU Mod Test Game: The Rise of Mythic Heroes

[nbarclay]

A couple days ago, I started a test game to compare the Emperor and Mythic Hero difficulty levels. I've played it up to 800 BC thus far on both levels, a point at which the differences in the two games can be considered significant. The settings are standard continents map, 70% water, middle-of-the-road climate and so forth, roaming barbs, and 7 randomly selected opponents (selected using my calculator's random number generator so I could lock them into the scenario). My civ was also selected at random, and I ended up with the Hittites.

If anyone else wants to give the scenario a try, here it is. The difficulty level is not locked, so people are welcome to play it on whatever level they want to. Also note that while my random number generator says we're supposed to play the Hittites, it doesn't look like I managed to lock in the civ for the human player successfully.

[nbarclay]

As might be expected, especially with an expansioniist civ, luck played a role in the difference between games. I had two major pieces of good fortune in the Mythic Hero game that I did not have in the Emperor game. First, by 3450 BC, I had managed to use tech trades to get a total of three workers from the Vikings, my closest neighbor. That significantly boosted my own development and at the same time undoubtedly slowed the Vikings down a little. And second, in 3200 BC, I popped a city from a hut just five tiles away from the capital. Those factors combined to give me a considerable advantage that I hadn't planned on when I set up the game. In contrast, while I did get a city from a hut in my Emperor game, the city was in a frozen wasteland at the far end of the continent.

The Mythic Hero game also had a piece of bad luck that the Emperor game didn't, in the form of an attack by three warriors and two spearmen from the Ottomans. Fortunately, all the warriors accomplished was to force me to change production in my capital to a spearman, whom they promptly promoted from regular to elite. The Ottoman spearmen did a little bit of pillaging, but not enough to offset the advantage my three Viking slaves had been providing.

Both games also produced wars with the Vikings when they demanded Mysticism (which I had acquired from huts) from me. In both cases, I instead traded Mysticism to the Ottomans for an alliance against the Vikings. (I pretty much just sat back and let them fight it out with each other, although I did end up having to kill an encroaching Viking spearman in the Mythic Hero game.) I know that in the Mythic Hero game, the Vikings razed an Ottoman city, which the Ottomans later rebuilt. The same thing may have happened in the Emperor game, but I didn't think to watch closely enough to be sure.

As of 800 BC, in the Mythic Hero game, the Vikings have eight cities, the Ottomans have nine, and I have thirteen. But remember that I was boosted by the early aquisition of a free city and three slaves, while the Vikings were handicapped by the loss of three workers and the Ottomans had to replace a city autorazed by the Vikings. With less luck on my part, the numbers of cities would have been essentially even at this point in the game.

My early advantages also helped me get Philosophy sooner than i could have otherwise, finishing the research in 800 BC (and taking Code of Laws as my free tech so I can start on Republic). I'm ahead by those two techs on the Writing branch, while the Ottomans and Vikings both have The Wheel and the Vikings also have Horseback Riding. (In the interest of research, I traded for The Wheel to see whether either neighbor had Horseback Riding, but I'm going to reload to a point before the tade before I go on.)

In the Emperor game, I have nine core cities as of 800 BC plus one city on the opposite end of the continent, with settlers on their way to found three more core cities and one more far-end one. (I'd moved my frozen wasteland city and later used it to build a settler.) The Vikings have seven cities, one less than in the Mythic Hero game in spite of not having been handicapped by losing workers early in trades the way they were on Mythic Hero. The Ottomans only have five cities, four less than in the Mythic Hero game.

Without the early advantages I lucked into on Mythic Hero, my research in Philosophy is going a lot slower in spite of the lower cost on Emperor. I finally gave up on going faster than a 50-turn pace (after a 50-turn pace for Writing). The time remaining is thrrteen turns. Through a series of trades, I ended up with Iron Working, The Wheel, and Horseback Riding, although the deals ended up combining to cost five gold per turn. (Remember that the AI tech costs are the same on all difficulty levels, with the cost for the human varying instead, so the only real surprise in the Ottomans' getting Iron Working on Emperor but not on Mythic Hero is that they did it with fewer cities.)

In the image below, the top minimap is from the Emperor game, while the bottom one is from the Mythic Hero game.

[nbarclay]

It's now 530 BC, and I've gotten Philosophy on Emperor (the first civ to get it). In the Mythic Hero game, I'm now up to sixteen cities, compared wiith eleven for the Vikings and ten for the Ottomans. I'm second in GNP and Mfg. Goods, probably to a civ (or civs) on the other continent, but I'm first in productivity.

My Emperor game is also up to sixteen cities, albeit with two of them on the far end of the continent where their value is extremely limited and with fewer workers and tile improvements in my core. In that game, the Vikings are still at seven cities (four less than in the Mythic Hero game) and the Ottomans only have six (also four less than on Mythic Hero). Both Mythic Hero AIs have more than one and a half times as many cities as their Emperor counterparts at this point. Even though my civ isn't developed as far in the Emperor game, I'm first in GNP, Mfg. Goods, and Productivity.

In the Mythic Hero game, the Vikings and Ottomans both have Literature. Oddly, no one's researched Iron Working yet. It's usually a very high priority for AIs, but in my Mythic Hero game, it hasn't been for some reason. AI research in the Emperor game is at a similar stage, with the Vikings recently having discovered Map Making. (Remember that Iron Working has been discovered in that game.)

In the Mythic Hero game, the wonders completed thus far are the Oracle (Koreans) in 1450 BC, the Pyramids (Zulu) in 730 BC, the Colossus (Roman) in 710 BC, and the Temple of Artemis (Spanish) in 550 BC. In the Emperor game, the wonders are the Oracle (Spanish) in 775 BC, the Pyramids (Korean) in 690 BC, and the Colossus (Romans) in 570 BC. Note that in both games, all the wonders completed thus far are on the other continent, probably mostly because none of the starting positions on our continent is very good.

In the minimaps and F3 information below, Emperor is on the left and Mythic Hero is on the right.

[punkbass2000]

I'm the one download so far. I'll try to play when I get a chance, though I have other things to catch up on first, etc. I'll also only probably play through the AA or so. I may even not use scouts so as to try to prevent too many variables.

[Arrian]

Ah, the difficulty of testing in civ - so many variables (made worse by getting an exp. civ).

-Arrian

[Modo44]

I downloaded it too. I'm a beginner at Demigod, but am trying it anyway. Less than stellar start (low food), bad strategy (I suck big time at playing Expansionist), oh well. Punkbass, you will like this - I'm in the Medieval Age, and still behind the AI tech-wise. Behind the AI on the other continent, that is. But I should be back in the game, if I manage to survive Berserk raids...

[nbarclay]

In the Mythic Hero game, I ran out of room to REX at almost exactly the same time I got Republic, with a total of twenty-five cities. The transition to Republic is now complete in 250 BC. At this point, the Vikings and the Ottomans have thirteen cities each, and I'm guessing they'll probably build a total of three more between the two of them.

Note that my extra city from a hut and my trades for Viking workers played a major role in how lopsided the REXing phase was. Without that settler, I'd be a little farther behind in my expansion, which in turn would have given the AIs (and especially the Vikings) a bit more time to expand in my direction. As things were, a Viking settler had to turn back when I founded my last few cities (packed close together) in the area he'd been headed for.

At the same point in the Emperor game, I have twenty cities in the main part of my empire and two on the far end of the continent. Since the Mythic Hero Vikings have lost their ability to expand to the north, the Emperor Vikings have caught up with them some, with eleven cities compared with the Mythic Hero Vikings' thirteen. The Emperor Ottomans have only seven cities, only barely over half what the Ottomans in the Mythic Hero game have. The Ottoman city placement seems to be the same in both games, aside from a couple city names, but there are places where border expansions are extremely important for food where the Mythic Hero Ottomans have expansions and the Emperor Ottomans don't. I think the Mythic Hero Ottomans may have gotten a hold of Ceremonial bural a bit earlier due to the timing of my trades (after discovering the tech in huts), and temples (and whatever else AIs want to build before they starrt temples) cost them less on the higher level.

In the wonder race, the Koreans on Mythicc Hero have added two more wonders to their collection: the Great Library in 530 BC and the Mausoleum of Mausollos in 470 BC. Only one additional wonder has been built in the Emperor game since the last report: the Temple of Artemis, completed by the Zulus in 530 BC.

One of the biggest differences in the games is in regard to culture. In the Emperor game, I'm actually ahead in culture, with 444 culture compared to the Vikings' second-place 384. (With no food bonuses in the starting area, I had time to build more temples than I usually do while I'm still REXing.) My culture in the Mythic Hero game is a little lower at 388. But the Vikings in that game have about one and a half times my culture, and the Ottomans have a truly enormous lead with 1105 culture. Thus, I'll be able to push more aggressively in founding cities next to AI borders in the Emperor game than I could safely in the Mythic Hero game.

Speaking of the research picture, in the Emperor game, one of the AIs researched Map Making and the other Polytheism, setting up a trade between them. I eventually traded Philosophy to the Ottomans for both plus some gold, leaving me ahead by Code of Laws (and ahead of the Vikings by that plus Philosophy). I'm two turns away from discovering Republic in that game. In the Mythic Hero game, I traded Code of Laws for The Wheel and Literature, leaving Philosophy and Republic as my tech lead. However, the Vikings have Horseback Riding, which I don't yet. (Not that my Hittites have any urgency about learning to ride horses, especially when the terrain is favorable for three-man chariots.)

[nbarclay]

I'm up to AD 150 now, and finished with my REXing in the Emperor game. The (probably) final city count on the home continent in the Mythic Hero game is 25 cities for me, fifteen for the Vikings, and fourteen for the Ottomans. I probably would have had a small advantage in number of cities if I hadn't had my good fortune early in the game, but not as much of one as I ended up with. Even as things stand now, the Vikings are slightly ahead of me in percent of world area on the F8 screen - 14% to 13% - although I'm completely blowing them away in population. From the F11 stats, I'm first in GNP (probably thanks to being in Republic); second in Mfg. Goods, Productivity, and Population; and fourth in land area.

In the Emperor game, the final city count on the home continent is 31 cities on my end of the continent plus three on the far end for me (six more than on Mythic Hero in spite of less early luck and not counting the far-end cities), thirteen cities for the Vikings (two less than on Mythic Hero), and ten for the Ottomans (four less than on Mythic Hero). I'm first in all the F11 stats I listed above.

In the wonder race, the Zulus finished the Hanging Gardens in 110 AD in the Mythic Hero game. Ironically, the Spanish built the same wonder the same year in the Emperor game. Egypt completed the Great Library in the Emperor game in 150 BC, but the Mausoleum of Mausollos hasn't been finished yet in that game.

In the Mythic Hero game, the AIs aren't giving me a lot of cooperation in research so I'm having to do almost all of my own. I eventually traded Philosophy for Ivory and a handful of gold; the Vikings wouldn't throw Horseback Riding into the deal, so I'm guessing they were already researching Philosophy themselves. After researching Republic, I used some gold for rush building and eventually researched Mathematics and Currency. The Vikings demanded Mathematics shortly after I researched it, and I wasn't strong enough militarily to feel safe refusing, but I think I got a big enough head start on the Statue of Zeus with a prebuild that I'll be able to beat them to it anyhow. I'm currently ahead of the Vikings by Republic and Currency (balanced by their having Horseback Riding, which I don't), and ahead of the Ottomans by thpse plus Philospohy and Mathematics. The Ottomans don't know how to ride horses yet. Iron Working still hasn't been researched yet, so I've just started that myself.

In the Emperor game, I'm one turn away from Currency. I'm ahead of both AIs by Code of Laws, Republic, and Mathematics.

[nbarclay]

It's AD 450 in my Mythic Hero game, and a suicide galley just met the Zulus (last turn) and Koreans (this turn). I got a message a few turns previously indicating that the Spanish had been defeated, and judging by the names of some of the Zulu cities (Madrid, for example), it looks like the Zulus were the ones who killed them. The Zulus currently have more land than I do, about the same percentage of the world's population, and almost as many cities (twenty-one). And take a look at the tech race - after I traded a handful of gold for the last little bit of work on Monotheism.

In the Emperor game, I got in a war with the Vikings right after my last report and was too busy with other things to send out ships. As a result, I didn't make contact with the other continent until two centuries later than in the Mythic Hero game. But in spite of that, the AIs on the other continent were less advanced at the time I made contact.

The screenshot below shows the tech levels of the two AIs I've met so far in the Mythic Hero game, along with a minimap.

[nbarclay]

My Mythic Hero game is now up to AD 960, entry into the industrial era. At the time of my last report, I'd been planning an assault on the Vikings in an effort to preempt their getting Beserks. My arms build-up, such as it was, was slow because I was also trying to build up economically to compete with the other continent technologically. Further, since the Vikings had the only iron on or near the continent, I had to settle for 3-man chariots as my primary offensive unit. So my assault would use 3-man chariots (plus a handful of ancient cavalry) with some catapult support.

The Vikings played into my hands beautifully, declaring war on the Ottomans just a few turns before my second Ivory deal with the Vikings ended. That pulled the Vikings' offensive forces away from my border before my invasion even started, and ensured that the Vikings would be forced to fight a two-front war. And I wouldn't have to pay for an alliance with the Ottomans or face the moral dilemma of turning on a former ally when the time comes to conquer the Ottomans. (The Ottomans had squandered whatever goodwill was left over from our previous alliance by making a demand somewhere along the line.)

Once I pulled the trigger on my own invasion, my advance was slow but steady down through and a little past Trondheim. But I was so busy building universities that I didn't build military reinforcements, and my attack was starting to run out of steam about the time the Ottomans and Vikings made peace. That, plus the amount of gold per turn the Vikings had available to pass on to me in deals once the peace treaty was signed (a bit over forty gpt), was enough for me to end my invasion.

The war with the Vikings triggered my golden age, which in turn allowed me to catch up with the other continent in technology and eventually pull ahead. By now, I'm ahead of Korea by two techs - Theory of Gravity and Magnetism - and of the Zulus by those plus Physics. The only optional medieval techs not yet researched are Military Tradition and Free Artistry. (Of course the fact that the Koreans are Scientific will eat into my lead a bit when they enter the industrial era.) The other surviving AIs are all several techs farther back, and the Zulus and Koreans have sent Rome to join Spain in oblivion.

I ended up losing all three of the major early industrial wonders. I could have gotten Leo's if I'd played things differently, but with the head start the AIs had on medieval wonders, two AIs competing (thereby increasing the risk of a cascade), and Demigod-level production bonuses for the AIs, I'd decided to focus on other priorities. I did get the Knights Templar, Copernicus' Observatory, and Magellan's Voyage, and expect to get Newton's University and probably (with the help of prebuilds) Bach's Cathedral and Smith's Trading Company.

I don't think I'll play the Emperor game any farther. As of AD 720 when I made contact with the last foreign civ, I was ahead of Egypt by Astronomy and Navigation (with one turn left researching Banking); of Korea by those plus Education; and of the other AIs by even more. With the AIs only having Emperor-level advantages, and with no killer AIs having emerged on the other continent, my lead would just get wider if I kept playing.

The screenshot below shows the current scope of my empire in the Mythic Hero game, focusing on my territory conquered from the Vikings..

[nbarclay]

Korea entered the industrial era in AD 1110 as part of a round of tech-for-luxury+gold deals and got Steam Power as their free tech. That leaves me with Industrialization and about half of the research needed for Electricity as my margin of advantage over them, with the Zulus trailing Korea by Steam Power. The AIs also have Free Artistry, which I don't. But since Shakespeare's Theater has been built (by Korea in a cascade after I finished Smith's and Bach's), I'm in no hurry to get it from them. One of the AIs researched Military Tradition, and I got it in one of my trades.