Training Succession Game 201

[Modo44]

Originally posted by dmd175
Will continue to work on this. I guess you guys don't count slave laborers, even at half discounted rate in terms of your planning.

Only if they come in numbers. Otherwise, they are good for Roads, and nothing else, because most jobs take them forever to finish. It's a bit better if you play an Industrious civ, but native Workers are always more important.

Originally posted by dmd175
All the build orders for each city need to be revamped with a fresh eye. AFAIK the only cities with warrior build are cities not yet connected that are just using that as a temporary placeholder.

This might be dangerous. If you happen to forget that city, it will make that Warrior, as it is a cheap unit. And then you get to pay for it, but you don't get to use it.

Originally posted by dmd175
Like you say, I agree these should be rushed. However, we are not gaining lots of gpt in an attempt to stay in tech race. Marketplaces were helping with this in terms of cash flow. I still have not mastered how you guys run very positive cash flows on high levels yet. So far we run about -1 to +15 gpt varying with turn (I guess population shifts, unit productions, improvement costs, etc).

The reason is very simple. We try to trade and research in a way, that allows us to sell technology to the AI. By the late Medieval Era, +200gpt from the AI is possible to do, and can become much more if conditions allow. In addition, the trades often yield an abundance of luxuries, so that the lux slider is usually at 0%. It is arguably one of the most important skills in this game. Plan your research - consider what technology is the most valuable, not researched by the AI, and try to get it first. Then sell it around, preferably for other technologies, luxuries, then gold. Once you manage that, you should be able to drain the AI treasury, much to the pleasure of your scientists. If you keep falling behind (I think this won't happen in this game, but it's possible against a KAI.), consider buying, or stealing technology, to keep up. Don't bother with non-mandatory techs, except if you can afford to do it, and/or have good reason (Smith's Trading Company, requiring Economy, is often a good reason; so is Cavalry in many strategies).

Until you get a tech lead, you'll have to do with less cash, I'm afraid. For now, try to get Astronomy, so you can trade your luxuries, and resources around (trade routes will be possible over Sea squares). This should bring you some income (50 should be possible).

[dmd175]

Originally posted by Modo44

We try to trade and research in a way, that allows us to sell technology to the AI. By the late Medieval Era, +200gpt from the AI is possible to do,

For now, try to get Astronomy, so you can trade your luxuries, and resources around (trade routes will be possible over Sea squares). This should bring you some income (50 should be possible).

Agreed. Wertyu, we should try to research techs that the AI won't - if we can figure out what that might be. I already know that Aztecs have theology and invention though.

Astronomy is a great idea - yes, we should target that primarily in order to trade lux to AI for hopefully lots o' gpt.

[punkbass2000]

Ok, rapid-fire comments here before work, will have lots more time tomorrow. Will not be looking at save, just screens, so bear with errors.

Catapults are always a good idea for 1-2 shield cities that have nothing better to do. Their not worth the investment of any building except a culture generator and maybe Courthouse, if they're still close enough.

About 10spt, Modo is right, that is a great number for buildign almost anything in the game. See if you can rearrange cities such that you can achieve this magical number and also focus teams of Workers towards that goal. 2 10spt cities are better than 3 9spt cities for the better part of the game.

Marketplaces should be top priority once you have the tech, especially if you're Republic or plan to be soon. The generate cash and happiness which in turn generates more ash. Wealth is power.

On the slaves issue, there's no real advantage in using slaves for specific jobs, generally speaking. A worker turn is a worker turn, ven when it's only a half . Do what he says where convenient, like a border town that needs a chop, as the 10 shields are just as good later as now, usually. Also if Workers are far apat it may matter, but in the core Worker stacks should be the rule and for many situations an extra slave in a stack can make a significant difference. I also like to keep slaves in stacks of two or multiples thereof. Oh, and BTW, Industrious slaves work no faster then regular slaves in C3C; this one of the Industrious nerfs and why it really isn't the power trait that some seem to cling to it as.

I believe we're at a reasonable place tech-wise. This is where I would expect someone to be when at their appropriate difficulty level. I would beeline for Printing Press if you're looking for good trade-bait.

That's all for now, back in ~12 hours. Good luck!

[Modo44]

The thing about Slaves is simple math: their turns are less valuable than native Workers' turns. So it's better to lose those Slave turns, by entering tiles to be roaded, rather than full Worker turns. Perhaps not a big difference, but a real one. And it might be more important in this game, because Babylon lacks Workers in general.

When a tile has a Road already, get all the Workers you can muster, to have it improved quickly (4 native Workers for Irrigation, 6 for Mine on flatland).

[wertyu70]

Ok, I'm going home and I''ll start to play...
My goals are:
1) Increase the number of workers
2) Try to rearrenge production to have "Specialized cities"
3) Set Research to a tech that I can trade.

[dmd175]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Oh, and BTW, Industrious slaves work no faster then regular slaves in C3C; this one of the Industrious nerfs and why it really isn't the power trait that some seem to cling to it as.

I believe we're at a reasonable place tech-wise. This is where I would expect someone to be when at their appropriate difficulty level. I would beeline for Printing Press if you're looking for good trade-bait.

Thanks for the tip on the slaves w/ industrious. Was not sure about that but suspected it didn't help slave efficiency. There should be a way to convert slaves into bona fide nationals though, just the way that citizens are. I suppose you can do that roundabout by add to city then pop out a worker (hopefully it will come out your civ though). But over time maybe their efficiency should increase pro rata until they are full citizens....

Lots of other ideas here too, like should their be "slaves" in democracy? Does democracy and RP still have beneficial effect on slave labor rates though industrious does not (at least with RP I am pretty sure yes).

EDIT:

Originally posted by Modo44
The thing about Slaves is simple math: their turns are less valuable than native Workers' turns. So it's better to lose those Slave turns, by entering tiles to be roaded, rather than full Worker turns. Perhaps not a big difference, but a real one.

Agree completely. Thanks for forcefully pointing this out. Slaves should be the road horses. Generally after I captured them I think I used them as so, but we should be careful to save our native worker turns from doing roading in totally undeveloped territory.

[dmd175]

Originally posted by wertyu70
Ok, I'm going home and I''ll start to play...
My goals are:...
3) Set Research to a tech that I can trade.

Seems like everyone on the board is tilting toward a top track research path.

That means after we get monotheism in 4 turns IIRC, we get theology next. Possible Sumeria could have it, and maybe we could try stealing from them or someone else. Unfortunately we have little cash; thus unlikely we can trade for it too.

But after theology...(education &) music theory, (education &) astronomy, or printing press? I myself always like to get music theory and JS Bach's. Moot point if we are continuing to shun wonders this game. Modo makes good point about usefulness of astronomy, while PB advocates for PP. Can music theory be traded to the same extent as PP? I really don't know because I tend to hold it until 1 turn before I put up JS Bach. We can also get education and be sure to trade to Iroquois (I believe) to negate GL (they captured it from Sumer I think). Unlikely that this tech choice will come up in next 10 turns, but I'm interested in figuring out how you guys might play this.

[wertyu70]

450 AD:
First of all, I had a look at the empire, it was quite a long time since I have seen it.
As suggested, cities producing warrior switched to spearmen or catapult
New Ashur founded
London Galley south, exploring the continent.
Try so group worker in gang to speed up tile improvement (4 worker irrigating together = 1 tile improved in 1 turn)
My main Goal for these 10 turn : Try so set tiles so that cities produce 5 or 10 shield, to optimize production.

460 AD:
Ellipi procuced worker (set to build mine to increase shiled production). I want Ellipi to have 5 shiled and 5 food per turn, to let it become a 2 turn worker pump.

470 AD:
Nothing to say, Aztecs offer us Mnotheism for 60 gold, I refuse because we will discover it next turn.

480 Monotheism!. Try to trade to get Teology but Sumerians don't have it and the others don't want to trade. Set science to get it soon running a little deficit.
Babylon switched from Colosseum to Cathedral.

490 AD
2 new worker ready, set them to join other group and work together.
Nottingham produced granary and started worker.
Uruk switched from courthaus to marketplace.

500 AD Niniveh produced marketplace, start settler to fill the empty space on the north peninsula.

510 AD:
Nimrud produced temple, I dont' know what to build next, so I build a horseman.
Zamua produced granary, start barracks (for future military production)
New ellipi founded, building spearman.

520 AD Babylon build cathedral. I don't know what todo, since it has a barracks I start producing a Medioeval Infantry.
Ellipi produced a worker.
We heard the Zulus are building Leo.

530 AD Niniveh produced settler -> Cathedral.
Settler toward north.
Nottingham worker. Corruption is high, start corthouse.

540 AD:
Ellipi produced worker.
Coventry spearmen -> Next temple to expand city borders with culture.
Iroquois are building Knight Templar.
Zulu Completed Sistine.

550 AD:
Eulbar harbor, next Marketplace
Shruppak marketplace, next barracks.
new niniveh worker, since production is only 1 shield I set it to produce another worker.

Now, we are near teology, I tried to set cities to produce 5 or 10 shield per turn and worker are grouped together.

Good luck to the next emperor

[wertyu70]

The saved game:

[wertyu70]

Core cities:

[wertyu70]

West region:

[dmd175]

Looking good wertyu.

Originally posted by wertyu70
450 AD: As suggested, cities producing warrior switched to spearmen or catapult

Nice.

Originally posted by wertyu70
470 AD: Nothing to say, Aztecs offer us Mnotheism for 60 gold, I refuse because we will discover it next turn.

Very convenient of them, huh?

Originally posted by wertyu70
480 Monotheism!. Try to trade to get Teology but Sumerians don't have it and the others don't want to trade.

As expected...but looks like research is going well. By my count, it will be onlyabout 10 turns to theology. Once we get universities established we will be in good shape. Again though, what path after theology? Anyone? Education to MT, or astro, or PP??

Originally posted by wertyu70
510 AD: Nimrud produced temple, I dont' know what to build next, so I build a horseman.

Nimrud is very close to english capital, so I guess military units make the most sense to prevent any possible flip, but local culture is also important.

Originally posted by wertyu70
520 AD Babylon build cathedral. I don't know what todo, since it has a barracks I start producing a Medioeval Infantry.

maybe a prebuild for university? or wonder? or even HE.

Originally posted by wertyu70
Corruption is high, start corthouse.

Yeah, we definitely need more of these.

Originally posted by wertyu70
Iroquois are building Knight Templar.
Zulu Completed Sistine.

At least they wasted time going for chivalry. I say wasted because by the time we fight any of them, knights will likely be obsolete.

Originally posted by wertyu70
Now, we are near teology, I tried to set cities to produce 5 or 10 shield per turn and worker are grouped together.

Good luck to the next emperor

Nice work wertyu. Impressive run to theology. I will play, hopefully tonight, more likely tomorrow early AM (xmas parties tonight).

[Modo44]

Comments on the 550 AD save

• 30 Workers. The trend is good, keep it up.
• You have Feudalism, the Engilsh don't. Consider preparing a final war for them. 10 MediInf and some support (Trebuchets, Pikemen, even Horsemen) should do the job. The longer you wait, the longer that territory isn't working for you.
• Consider rushing a Temple in Telloh. It's not high priority, but it would give that island access to both Whales. Also, send a unit or two over there. The AI knows which cities aren't defended, and will capture it, if you get into a war.
• I'm sure this was said before, but Grasslands should usually by Mined, and Plains Irrigated. Until you have Mined all those Hills and Mountains, the flatland should give you some shield capacity. mine only the Plains that would give you too much food. You want to have as many tiles as possible producing at least 1 shield. This will be very important, once you are in Golden Age, or in Mobilization. Only the tiles with at least 1 shield will get another one as a bonus.
• Worker bands are great, but not for roading. Do I get to repeat the whole argument now?
• And another argument to be repeated (I think). Except in very early game, don't build units without Barracks. Bombard units are an exception, because they don't get experience levels.
• Try not to build Settlers and Workers in cities larger than size 6. They need twice the food of a size-6 city to grow, so it's a big waste to lose that citizen. I know it's sometimes contrary to my previous "build Workers everywhere", but nobody said this game is easy. At the same time, build Workers or Settlers, if a city has too many citizens, and needs Specialists because of that.
• If you don't know what to do with a coastal city, try a Harbor. It will need one sooner or later in most cases.
• Nineveh has a Barracks, can do 8spt, and even keep a +5 food surpulus to grow to size 7 quickly, if some citizens are moved. 8spt is useful for your current units, almost as much as 10spt. It loses only 2 shields when building a Pikeman, or Catapult, and it loses no shields, when building a MedInf. I guess you have a Barracks city for now. And it could even have 10spt soon...
• Babylon can do 15spt, if you try a bit harder (has 14spt now). That's a Pikeman every 2 turns... Or a Horseman, for future upgrades... Yes, you do have a second Barracks city.

Concerning technology, try Printing Press. I'm not sure, but I supose Punkbass is right here. Later, go for Astronomy, to start seling resources and luxuries.

Your land should be rather easy to defend, once you have disposed of the English, and prepared a good defensive force of offensive units (Yes, mobile offensive units are the best defence.). I'd seriously consider going for Democracy. Lower corruption, and a boost for the Workers would be really nice. But it would require keeping the AI aggression down by trades.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Modo44
The thing about Slaves is simple math: their turns are less valuable than native Workers' turns. So it's better to lose those Slave turns, by entering tiles to be roaded, rather than full Worker turns. Perhaps not a big difference, but a real one. And it might be more important in this game, because Babylon lacks Workers in general.

You have a point about moving Workers onto unroaded tiles, but, IMO, roads are the far most important tile improvements. Cities that are not connected to the capital take corruption hits. We're Republic, so worked tiles not beside river are losing ~2gpt. That's potentially 6gpt every time you use a slave instead of a Worker. It's too important right now, but roads also allow units to travel faster to fronts, etc. It's really far too situational to say to not use Workers for roads. Chops, fine, assuming you can use the ten shields just as well later as sooner.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by dmd175

But after theology...(education &) music theory, (education &) astronomy, or printing press? I myself always like to get music theory and JS Bach's. Moot point if we are continuing to shun wonders this game. Modo makes good point about usefulness of astronomy, while PB advocates for PP. Can music theory be traded to the same extent as PP? I really don't know because I tend to hold it until 1 turn before I put up JS Bach. We can also get education and be sure to trade to Iroquois (I believe) to negate GL (they captured it from Sumer I think). Unlikely that this tech choice will come up in next 10 turns, but I'm interested in figuring out how you guys might play this.

Music Theory can be traded as well as PP, give or take (Assuming JSB's hasn't been built). Printing Press can be researched much sooner and is really the "opportunity tech" og the Middle Ages. Generally, it is the tech at which Deity games become won or lost for me. Researching Education first ruins your chance of monopoly. Being Scientific helps here, but generally the AI will have up to Edu. and Gunpowder at least. Your opportunity lies in the AI's initial beeline towards Gunpowder. They stop at Chemistry because it looks like a nothing tech, the AI only sees its value as being unlocking two techs; it does not see the techs behind it. Similarly, it sees PP as a nothing tech; it only gives one preq and a civ ability, and on top of that its an optional tech. First tier techs usually get around quickly enough because of the Science trait, and after that it sees units in Chivalry, Invention and Gunpowder. Theology also shows a GW, and Edu gives an improvement. So you only need to research two techs while the AI research/trade on the cheap for 5. BTW, although trading Edu to the civ is not a bad idea, it's usually not that important and not worth choosing it for. As I say, it won't be expensive for the AI to buy it from each other, and money in AI hands is in AI hands.

BTW, Writing and Scientific Method are also pivotal techs. Writing as another opportunity tech, particularly one at 50-turn speed, and Scientific Method for the knockout blow in the Industrial Age, doubling the efficiency of your factories.