Training Succession Game

[punkbass2000]

Hmm, don't know really know. You might be best to post a thread in the Errors Forum at CFC, or even in General.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by dmd175
pb, thanks for responses.

the error occurred immediately after I installed c3c 1.22. It sort of messed up my c3c main menu, changing the first items to "barricade" and "build barricade" instead of "new game". I uninst and reinst and same errors during both (?)

fyi, I won't be home to play until sunday AM.

You do not need to have the AU mod to play it. I just test it and I was able to load the game with no errors at 1.22 and no AU mod.

So I would remove all civ from registry after uninstall. Install CivIII, no patch, then C3C and then the patch. Now load the game. Of course you want to save any games or biqs you have created or download to copy back after you reinstall.

[JavierLQ]

My turns are done

I played my turns last night, here is the report:

3450 B.C.
Hittie Warrior moved south, followed with our own to prevent him popping huts or taking over worker.
Started to road the game with worker.

3400 B.C.
Hittie Warrior goes E. , sent our warrior north-east to incense to keep exploring. Fount a third insence SE of first one, we will be able to take advantage once 2nd city grows.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=54201_grab_017.jpg

3350 B.C.
Warrior goes N.E.

3300 B.C.
Warrior goes N.

3250 B.C.
Warrior goes N., finds a game. Possible city placement for 3rd city to the W. of game, it would take advantage of lake and of gold in hill after growth.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=54201_grab_018.jpg

3200 B.C.
Still exploring N.E. Site

3150 B.C.
Warrior exploring N.E. Site. Moved worker N.E. after finishing road on game.

3100 B.C.
Granary at Constantinople done, swithced to settler which will take 6 turns. Worker begins on road at tile S.W. of where second city will go.

3050 B.C.
Hittie Warrior is moving back towards our capital, followed with our own.

3000 B.C.
Hittie warrior goes S, moved our own south on mountain.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=54201_grab_019.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------
I have a question, is the hittie warrior that much of a threat that we should follow him worrying about taking goddy huts and/or capturing our worker that we should follow him around?

JavierLQ

EDIT: tried to post the pics, however how do you make it so taht instead of the link it shows you the actual picture in the post? Thanks

[punkbass2000]

It's really hard to say what to do about that Hittite warrior; I've never been in situation where this is even a concern. Usually by the time the AI is this close to our capital I would have a warrior or two more, particularly one in the capital serving MP duty. We probably should follow it, unfortunately, as it's not uncommon for the AI to up and decide to attack, which would make us have to waste time building a spearman.

To make the screen show up rather than link you have to add it as an attachment, like you did with the save file. The downside is, AFAIK, you can only have one per post, which was why I had a second post after my original report for the save.

P.S. a question for Javier as well as a warning for dmd. If I'm not mistaken, Constantinople just grew, and on monarch you only get two content citizens for 'free', so the third should be unhappy now, which will cause civil disorder if not attended to. JLQ, did you already prevent the disorder? (It's hard to tell from the screen, but it looks like luxuries are still at zero.) And dmd, when you start up your turn, before pressing enter, check and up the luxury rate to 10 or 20%, whichever causes the pink box to the lefty of the slider to say '-1:Entertainment', as one will be enough for now. Also, if it says '-2:Science', see if you can drop the science rate to 10% and still get '-1:Science', as we're doing the maximum number of turns anyway.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
It's really hard to say what to do about that Hittite warrior;

Ignore. On Monarch I have never seen the AI attack undefended cities that early. I repeat: never.

[punkbass2000]

I remember hearing someone complaining about being destroyed on turn 7 by an opponents warrior, which they found very confusing. We soon learned that this was their first Monarch game, which was why they hadn't expected to see an AI warrior; they didn't know that the AI starts with a couple on Monarch.

[Modo44]

Still, it's one in a million on Monarch. And was probably done by some psycho kind of AI, like the Zulu.

Well, build a Warrior then, just after the Settler. It will be needed anyway for MP duty, when you let city grow some more.

[punkbass2000]

True enough.

[dmd175]

pb & J & everyone

I was able to get the .save to load (had to uninstall all civ and then reinstall civ, c3c, 1.22, and then au mod and I got game to load early this AM) (sorry, saw vxma1's post after).

I will get my turns played asap at 830am tomorrow - sleep deprivation be damned. Maybe we can even do a second round tomorrow if you guys are able?

Any more suggestions and comments are very welcome. First issues will be check lux slider. Second will be getting a warrior for MP/defense. I have seen AI attack early, but generally undefended 2nd/3rd cities and not capital (back in Civ I the AI did if I remember right).

Did we decide on 669 for 2nd city or some other spot?

[punkbass2000]

699

[Dominae]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
You may be right here; I almost always go granary before settler, and never build a worker until I have at least three cities. Different strokes/folks, etc. Certainly the FW issue you highlight is probably a good enough reason to build the settler first, but I really like having my apital getting to five or six pop ASAP so that it can produce a lot of uncorrupted commerce whilst pumping out those four-turn settlers.

One Worker per three cities is too few. Even if you plan on building Workers in those cities from that point on, you will be behind in tile improvements for quite some time. Especially on a start like this where your first three cities will be growing at an average 5-6 turn pace. The principle I use is that every tile worked by a city needs to be fully improved. This requires a lot of Workers.

Regarding uncorrupted Commerce, my intuition is that a faster growth rate is better than a higher income early on; more population always more gold/research, while more gold/research generally does not feed back into your economy in the same way (you could make the argument that reaching Philosophy faster generates more gold/research via tech trades, but Philosophy is far enough away that my investment in population/growth usually has time to catch up to your investment in gold/research at that point). Furthermore, a size 5-6 city needs either Warriors or the Luxury slider to keep the populace happy, which is a hidden cost in the seemingly uber-efficient 4-turn uncorrputed capital pump.

This is not to say that 4-turn capital pumps are bad, but rather that, given numerous high Food output tiles, I like to expand horizontally before vertically.

3. Two cities with high Food ouput outgrow one city with a Granary.

How's that? Only if you don't MM enough... unless your implication is that the one city won't be high food.

Well, let's assume that all the cities have 5 Food per turn. Then then the two cities without Granaries each grow 1 pop point every four turns, for a total of 2; the one city with the Granary also grows 2 pop points every four turns. So in this case it seems like they both grow at the same rate. But if the cities in question grow have a 4 or 3 Food per turn surplus, then the two cities grow faster because they can maximally utilize the available Food, while the Granary city cannot.

What we're really interested in is the better option between:

1. Capital
2. Settler founds second city
3. Granary in capital
4. Granary in second city

and

1. Capital
2. Granary in capital
3. Settler founds second city
4. Granary in second city

I'm pretty sure the first option grows your empire faster. It also happens to be more versatile (if an enemy unit comes along, you need to waste your Granary prebuild to hurry that Spearmen). If anyone cares to test it out for real I would be interested in the results.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by dmd175
Did we decide on 669 for 2nd city or some other spot?

The thing about 699 as opposed to 69 or even 66 is that you will end up having to irrigate a crappy Desert tile to get fresh water to your Wheat tiles. A Desert tile, even when irrigated, is not something you want to be using so early on in the game. Sometimes it's a necessary evil to irrigate tiles you're not going to use to get fresh water to important spots, but here you have another option. By putting a city at 69 or 66, you "irrigate" that same Desert tile for free by virtue of having a city cover it (in fact, your Desert tile gets "promoted" to a fully-improved Plains tile). Then every tile that you need to irrigate ends up being a high-Food tile that you want to use anyway: the Flood Plains at 699 of your capital, the Game tile, and then the Wheat tiles (via your capital).

I never play with strict 2-tile placement myself (nor even, truth be told, strict 3-tile placement). But sometimes a situation calls for one city to be placed just 2 tiles away from another for best results. Allowing yourself this option will improve your early-game considerably.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Dominae


One Worker per three cities is too few. Even if you plan on building Workers in those cities from that point on, you will be behind in tile improvements for quite some time. Especially on a start like this where your first three cities will be growing at an average 5-6 turn pace. The principle I use is that every tile worked by a city needs to be fully improved. This requires a lot of Workers.

I don't know, I've never had worker problems. And I'm not suggesting a 3:1 city to worker ratio, either. I will build tons of workers, but sacrificing a pop point that early seems more detrimental to overall growth to me than is worthwhile. My capital at 4-6 pop will (usually) grow just as quickly as at 1-3 and will produce at least 3 extra commerce per turn.

Regarding uncorrupted Commerce, my intuition is that a faster growth rate is better than a higher income early on; more population always more gold/research, while more gold/research generally does not feed back into your economy in the same way (you could make the argument that reaching Philosophy faster generates more gold/research via tech trades, but Philosophy is far enough away that my investment in population/growth usually has time to catch up to your investment in gold/research at that point). Furthermore, a size 5-6 city needs either Warriors or the Luxury slider to keep the populace happy, which is a hidden cost in the seemingly uber-efficient 4-turn uncorrputed capital pump.

Well, to reiterate, I don't think I am sacrificing growth, just the opposite. I don't understand what you mean when you say that more gold doesn't feed back into your economy. Also, for a 4-6 pop city, building two warriors should not cost more than four turns which is little sacrifice for my aforementioned 3 commerce per turn.

Well, let's assume that all the cities have 5 Food per turn. Then then the two cities without Granaries each grow 1 pop point every four turns, for a total of 2; the one city with the Granary also grows 2 pop points every four turns. So in this case it seems like they both grow at the same rate. But if the cities in question grow have a 4 or 3 Food per turn surplus, then the two cities grow faster because they can maximally utilize the available Food, while the Granary city cannot.

This is what I meant by, 'only if you don't MM enough'. If you do, then your proposed 'problem' often is not a factor.

What we're really interested in is the better option between:

1. Capital
2. Settler founds second city
3. Granary in capital
4. Granary in second city

and

1. Capital
2. Granary in capital
3. Settler founds second city
4. Granary in second city

I'm pretty sure the second option grows your empire faster. It also happens to be more versatile (if an enemy unit comes along, you need to waste your Granary prebuild to hurry that Spearmen). If anyone cares to test it out for real I would be interested in the results.

I think you mean the first option, if I've been accurately gathering information on your position... in any case, my bet would be that it depends. In a really nice start like this one, I think option one might have a case, but I think that most of the time getting the granary up first will not only lead to faster empire growth in the long run, it will also mean more shields and commerce.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Dominae


The thing about 699 as opposed to 69 or even 66 is that you will end up having to irrigate a crappy Desert tile to get fresh water to your Wheat tiles. A Desert tile, even when irrigated, is not something you want to be using so early on in the game. Sometimes it's a necessary evil to irrigate tiles you're not going to use to get fresh water to important spots, but here you have another option. By putting a city at 69 or 66, you "irrigate" that same Desert tile for free by virtue of having a city cover it (in fact, your Desert tile gets "promoted" to a fully-improved Plains tile).

Wha???! You would honestly give up a free aqueduct just to avoid having to irrigate a desert? We're not even Agr.! Rivers are by far my highest priority when settling the first couple of towns, even above resources, generally. In a situation like this I would even consider placing my third city NE of my second just to grab an extra river city, especially given where the Hittite came from. I mean, turning a desert into a free plains and saving four worker turns is nice, but not 100 shields nice!

[Dominae]

The only good way of resolving this dispute is to play it the two different ways and then comparing results. For now, let me throw in two comments:

1. A free Aqueduct is not necessarily all that great in a city that need never grow beyond size 6 to be useful (i.e. eternal pump).

2. With my method, I have two Granary-less cities working irrigated Wheat, Flood Plains and Game tiles faster. In your method, you have one Granary city working mined(?) Wheat tiles for quite a while to achieve a four-turn pump. Where are you getting your Workers from? Will you go back and irrigate those mined Wheat tiles?