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**Modo44** · October 2, 2004, 12:07

Re: AU504 - Post-game comments

Originally posted by Aqualung71
How did the overall objective of the course affect the way you normally play the game?

Obviously, I built more culture than I normally would have, including some near-to-useless wonders, like the Mausoleum of Mausollos.

Also, I tried to conquer my home continent very fast, and I don't do that very often. I rather stay in my place, rarely destroying a civ as early as in this game.

The last thing was the crazy culture rushing progamme, I utilised. Neglecting other buildings, I decided to rush culture like crazy. I mean I had one tundra city with 2 pop, containing only: Temple, Library, Cathedral, Colosseum, University. Really not my normal build queue.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Generally, what is the best strategy overall for a 100K culture win?

Conquer your home continent. You need all that land, so that you can build culture until the end of the game. Preferably do it fast. The more units you will have to build to do it, the slower your cultural buildup will be.

Build many cities. Build more than you would normally feel comfortable with, or conquer parts of the other continent to get more cities. Basically it is cheaper to rush 2 Temples (2 + 2 = 4 culture) than 1 University (4 culture). So, for the most part of the game, the more cities you have, the better. Especially new cities.

Slow down research after a part of the medieval tech tree is done. Use the cash to buy even more buildings.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
What was your overall strategy regarding the pace of tech research?

I was researching pretty fast until medieval times, but keeping it slower than a 4-turn pace. I needed the cash for constant rushes. After researching Education I should have probably switched research off completely, but I did so only for a few turns and not exactly after Education. For the most part of the game, I was at a 6-turn pace, sometimes 5 or 7.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
How did the civ traits come into play in your objectives?

Religious Many early Temples, many Temples rushed cheap. Same goes for Cathedrals. The great culture I had right from the start allowed me to take cities without any fear of a flip.

Commercial The early conquest of China provided some very productive cities, something only a commercial civ could do. Later in Democracy, the whole continent was fairly productive despite a tight spacing. This turned into a constant healthy cash surpulus throughout the game.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
How important to you was building Great Wonders, and why?

Wonders provide culture, so they gave additional points. They added some value to maxed-out cities.

Naturally the benefits were nice as well. For instance, the SoZ provided a considerable boost to the Indian army, allowing some cities to forget about units for a long time.

When it comes down to pure cultural value, it turns out that it is best to build wonders only when you have spare production. Meaning, if you leave out a Library or Colosseum to start a wonder earlier, you will end up with a smaller culture than you could have. An exception would be a high-culture wonder like the GL (If you get it!), or a wonder rushed by a SGL.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
What did you learn about the C3C version of the Indians?

Uh, what was there to learn, except everything? This was like my 3rd game with this civ...

Religious and commercial traits make a huge combo for building. And War Elephants rock with the increased HP. That good enough?

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Was there anything you would have done differently?

Yes, three things.

1. I should have finished my REX and built a bigger force before going to war with the Chinese. Attacking all-out so early was fun, but it probably moved my win a couple turns away. As it turned out, I didn't destroy them completely in my first try and had to finish the job later. My first war with the Persians was stupid. It cost me a bunch of offensive units because of bad planning and weak preparations.

2. I should have switched off research halfway through the medieval times and used all the cash for rushes. A couple more turns wasted.

3. Not enough cities, especially in the tundra. Resulting in costly rushes (Universities instead of Temples). Another slowdown.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Which AI civ gave you the most trouble and why?

The friggin Iroquis KAI. They ended up nearly conquering their home continent (short by 2 Spanish cities) and had a bunch of islands. Ended up very close to taking my win away with their culture. They even tried an invasion against India, but it failed. I didn't have to destroy them in the end, but the possibility of razing their cultural core was under serious consideration. They snatched some wonders I would rather have on my continent. The Pyramids and Sun Tzu's were the most important ones - I had to build some Barracks and Granaries, instead of culture.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
How did the AU Mod affect gameplay (if applicable)

It certainly did create a bad KAI to compete with my empire. And it probably cost me some woders, mostly Sun Tzu's and Leo's.

The new armies we tried are quite weak compared to the normal ones. And the AI still wouldn't attack a healthy (1x Swordsman) army in the open.

Originally posted by Aqualung71
And of course.

Why haven't you yet submitted your game save to the Hall of Fame?

But I did.

**nbarclay** · October 2, 2004, 16:57

Re: AU504 - Post-game comments

Originally posted by Aqualung71
How did the overall objective of the course affect the way you normally play the game?

1) The order my cities built things in was radically different, especially in coastal cities. With all cities, cathedrals and colosseums were a vastly higher priority than they would normally be, with marketplaces built considerably later than normal. In addition, once coastal cities reached a point where they could work as many land tiles as they ever would, I tended to have them build all the cultural improvements they could before they built aqueducts (since further growth would not help their shield production, and hence would not help directly in the culture race). And with coastal cities that had to choose between water tiles for food and hills or mountains for production, I sometimes ran zero growth even before the cities reached size 6. Harbors also moved way down the priority list. In addition, the nature of the game affected my choice of priorities between temples and courthouses in outlying cities, making me more likely to defer a courthouse until after a temple was built.

2) In order to maximize productivity in outlying areas, I chose Feudalism as my form of government. As long as a reasonable percentage of a civ's cities (including captured ones) are always small, it has ample free unit support for war-fighting, and with the right strategy and tactics, maintenance isn't too big a deal. Affter using the AU Mod version of Feudalism for the first time, I'm inclined to view it as a respectable government. My main reservation about using it in the future is that it comes so late in the tech tree, but for religious civs, it might be worth considering as a second government after Monarchy under the right circumstances.

3) I deliberately researched Chivalry about as quickly as I could to trigger my GA so I could use its production bonus to speed up production of cultural buildings. With the power of War Elephants, I might have considered makiing Chivalry research a high priority anyhow, but the nature of the game made that choice practically a no-brainer for me. (Normally, I almost never research Chivalry myself.)

What was your overall strategy regarding the pace of tech research?

Since I was always in governments where rushing things with cash wasn't an option, I pushed the tech pace as hard as I could within the constraints of the governments I was in and the build priorities I followed. But with growth of coastal cities deferred, cultural buildings draining the treasury, and marketplaces' contribution to the treasury deferred, the nature of the game still slowed down my research a bit.

How important to you was building Great Wonders, and why?

I made wonders a little bit higher priority than normal because of their cultural value, but I normally like collecting wonders anyhow. I didn't push much harder than normal regarding early wonders, though, because I figured a strong REX would make more difference in the long run. (The only real difference in the early wonder races was that I made a somewhat serious, albeit ultimately unsuccessful, bid for the Pyramids.)

What did you learn about the C3C version of the Indians?

The War Elephant's extra hit point makes it a much nicer UU than it used to be. With that change, I'm inclined to view India as one of the better non-Agricultural civs in the game, or one of the better ones period for a dry start.

Was there anything you would have done differently?

There are other things I'd consider (such as an extra change of government, beelining to Monarchy first and then changing to either Feudalism or Republic later depending on the situation). But the game went well enough that there's nothing big that I get an, "If only I'd done that differently," feeling about - unless maybe it's that last war with the Iroquois, which spoiled my hopes of winning without invading them and turned out to have been unnecessary.

Which AI civ gave you the most trouble and why?

None of the AIs gave me particularly serious trouble. China scared and annoyed me a bit attacking while I was still REXing, but since that led to a long and costly war between China and Persia, the situation ultimately ended up helping me. And the Iroquois' taking one of my islands was a bit annoying, as was their coming so close to reaching 50K culture before I reached 100K. But the trouble turned out to be more annoying than dangerous. (Of course if I'd wanted greater danger, I would have played on Demigod instead of Emperor.)

How did the AU Mod affect gameplay (if applicable)

1) It completely changed my research path. Under the stock rules, my research priority would have been a beeline for Republic. But under AU Mod rules, Republic was not nearly as attractive as it would have been under stock rules, while Feudalism was far more attractive. So instead of beelining to Philosophy and then to Republic, I made the top part of the tech tree my priority. The AU Mod definitely made the government situation a lot more interesting and thought-provoking than it would have been under the standard rules.

2) The increase in the cost of catapults and trebuchets definitely had an impact on my main war with China, although I'm not sure exactly what it was. Would I have attacked just a little earlier, possibly even starting my offensive using swordsmen instead of upgrading to MedInfs first? Or would I have ended up with a little bit bigger invasion force? I'm not sure.

3) Under the stock rules, cavalry would have been a clear and significant improvement over War Elephants. But under the AU Mod rules, they aren't. As a result, I didn't even seriously consider taking the time to research Military Tradition myself.

4) The AIs on the other continent were in love with Feudalism. I suspect that they would have given me more of a run for my money in the tech race and/or have contributed more to my own research financing if they'd been in Republic, but Feudalism still seems to be relatively interesting to AIs in the AU Mod.

**Theseus** · October 4, 2004, 19:13

I will save a complete response for after posting my DARs, but I thought I 'roxxored' this game, and yet the Iroqouis gave me a serious run for my money... something to learn from, but a damn lotta fun in the process!!

**Mountain Sage** · October 5, 2004, 06:48

This particular game was a big disappointment, but I have to carry most of the blame.

First of all, I made a strategic error. I ‘forgot’ how easy it is on Emperor to stay ahead in techs and became obsessed with the tech lead.
Therefore, instead of researching Literature, I went directly to Monotheism.
Worse, I switched then later on to Invention instead of going for Education (wanted to grab Leo's). All those temples, libraries and universities I did not build on time (and even worse, I did not rush!) would avenge themselves with giving me low culture for a very long time.

Then of course, I did not imagine that Arabia would destroy 3 more civs and become master of its continent. Her culture was almost equal to mine. I knew I could have kept my lead but things were becoming so uninteresting...
Once my cities had all improvements, it became quite boring putting them on ‘wealth’ and hitting only the ‘next turn’ button.
And the Arabs were sooo arrogant…

Ah well, this is what AUs are for: to learn from your mistakes… and stupidity.

Oh, My save in the Hall of Fame?

Create a Hall of Shame and I'll be King there, no Emperor, or even better, MS-Sid God

**Aqualung71** · October 7, 2004, 11:00

Re: AU504 - Post-game comments

1. How did the overall objective of the course affect the way you normally play the game?

Changed it completely! Total focus was on securing the home continent, then building culture. Without the cultural focus, I would have pushed the tech pace as quickly as possible and probably won via spaceship somewhat later, but miles ahead of the AI in techs.

2. Generally, what is the best strategy overall for a 100K culture win?

For the fastest win possible, clearly it is not as simple as just building all the cultural improvements as quickly as you can. Conquest of nearby neighbours to ensure you have sufficient land to allow you to continue building (rushing) cultural buildings for the entire game is vitally important.

3. What was your overall strategy regarding the pace of tech research?

This is something that I didn't really understand well until the game had already started. Over time, it became quite obvious that the best strategy was to beeline to Education and then slow the tech pace right down, conserving cash to rush as many cultural improvements as possible.

The difficulty here was, India came into its own once War Elephants became available. This meant that there was a very small window of opportunity to optimally time the switch between conquest and peaceful culture building.

4. How did the civ traits come into play in your objectives?

This was the first time I had seriously played a commercial civ (excluding AU604, which is hard to get a feel for given the slowness of PBEM progression), and I was very impressed with its ability to control corruption and provide excess commerce from city level size onwards.

The religious trait of course made the "cultural build queue" a no-brainer, with Temple first, then Cathedral/Library next (with Cathedral usually first to promote happiness, particularly when Sistine was built, and also given that fast research was not a priority in this game). In addition, the religious trait affected the tech choice to the extent that I diverted for Democracy in order to provide extra cash for culture rushes.

5. How important to you was building Great Wonders, and why?

Nowhere near as important as you might have expected. Some wonders, such as Sistine and Leonardo's were very important, however from a cultural point of view building Wonders was really unimportant.....and to some extent counterproductive, since it was usually more beneifical to build (or rush) a University, while Wonders could not be rushed.

Then again, SoZ is always nice, since it allows you to build more cultural improvements rather than units.

Overall, my build queues were quite different, with cultural improvements coming before Marketplaces and even Harbours, which under normal circumstances would be high priority.

6. What did you learn about the C3C version of the Indians?

Those War Elephants are pretty awesome, and given the AU nerf to Cavalry, the WE rules the Middle-Age world!

The Commercial trait was also very nice.

7. Was there anything you would have done differently?

Not really. I have arrived at this game strategy of early attack after doing it "not-quite-so-well" in the last few AU games, and learnt that earlier attacks are usually better. This is particularly the case when you are nearing the end of the Ancient Era, since attacking a civ with MI/Pikes is vastly different to attacking a civ with only Swords/Spears, when taking into account city defensive bonuses.

8. Which AI civ gave you the most trouble and why?

Like most other players (except those that played the "corrupted" version), the Iroquois were clearly the only major competitor. Unlike others though, my Iroquois did not really threaten the 50,000 culture milestone, which meant that barring a major IC invasion from them, my game was effectively over around 1000AD.

9. How did the AU Mod affect gameplay (if applicable)

As Nathan has pointed out, under the AU Mod the Republic is virtually useless....particularly since it comes so early in the tech tree where you have few if any cities of size 7 or more. As a result, I went straight into Monarchy and later into Democracy. In a stock game I would almost certainly have moved straight into Republic and WW be damned!

As for Cavalry, it wasn't even an issue for me since the game was well over by the time I had to make that decision.

10. Why haven’t you yet submitted your game save to the Hall of Fame?

I did!

Overall, this was a relatively easy AU course due to the start location with the 2 Wheat resources providing an an early 4-turn Settler pump and 2/3-turn Worker pump.....the latter I maintained for most of the game. The 2 choke points allowed us to cut off Chinese expansion very effectively and the jungles to the north limited the Persians' ability to encroach on our territory, so we were treated to a perfect REX opportunity.

We probably should have played this at a level above our normal difficulty.

Overall though, the 100K culture win objective freaked me out since I had never tried it before, and given my previous experience at Demi-God I would not have thought in my wildest dreams that I could have achieved the objective at that level! In hindsight given the start position and the strategy I developed along the way, I now feel I could have done it....as I'm sure others could also have done so

**Risa** · October 7, 2004, 15:34

1. How did the overall objective of the course affect the way you normally play the game?

It didn't affect too much. That is to say, I was not working very hard to the object.
It did affect some choices, such as invading Iroquis after uniting my continent, and stopping conquering to avoid domination.

3. What was your overall strategy regarding the pace of tech research?

There was no stradegy in my ancient era, as I was relearning the game.
In early middle age, I need cathedrals, Leo's, war elephants, universities, so tech research is in that sequence. After Education, I prefer upper half of tech tree for wonders' culture, and trying to deny Persia and China to Gunpowder. That is how I got all middle age wonders (except Art of War).

The tech pace in my game is surprisingly slow, that makes me wonder if it's on warlord level, not emperor. I think it's probably because of late contact of the two continent. I hadn't intentionly controlled the tech pace, only lowered the research slider when I need golds to mass rush culture improvements (happened twice in the game).

4. How did the civ traits come into play in your objectives?

Well, cheap temples and cathedrals are always welcome. As for commercial trait, I don't think it contribute very much directly to the object of the game, since most of culture improvement outside core are rushed.

5. How important to you was building Great Wonders, and why?

I like collecting wonders. Thanks to slow tech pace, I got eight wonder in a single city by early industrial era, without help of SGL. That is on border of OCC or 5CC level.

To me, building middle age wonders have no conflicts with building culture improvements. Three early wonders (Art of War, Leo's, Sistine) may take up some time of building university, but one of these wonder is much more useful than one university. Later ones come after education, so no conflict is possible.

7. Was there anything you would have done differently?

Many. On early stage of the game I was nearly dreamwalking. Loose city placement, suboptimal tech choice, dedicated to a war of less gain, all of them I would avoid if try a second time.

8. Which AI civ gave you the most trouble and why?

Of course the Iroquois. They controlled a whole continent by 1410ad. I almost lost the faith that I can win by culture. Thanks to the nearly entenal war, they didn't build many culture improvements in new conquered land. Even that, they had cumulated 62k culture before lose to us.

9. How did the AU Mod affect gameplay (if applicable)

Greatly. First is tech pace. You don't know how reassuring it is when I discovered that Persia didn't know Ironworking by 1000bc!

Second is cavalry. There is no point upgrading 4/3/2 bhp+1 war elephant to 5/3/3 cavalry. They are of about the same strength in attack. WE is even stronger in defense. 3 move is nice, but 2 move can do most of things. That, together with good luck of leader generating, makes me intentionly avoid military tradition as long as possible in my game.

New army is not as strong as in stock rule, but very decent nonetheless. AI still refuses to attack a full health army in open, and is very reluctant to attack those in city.
It is good to see AI use army to attack. Only one army, though. Maybe the spawning cycle is a bit too long.

And of course republic is a joke. By current rules, it is reserved for OCC and 5CC games.

**-SafaN-** · October 16, 2004, 09:19

Re: AU504 - Post-game comments
[*] How did the overall objective of the course affect the way you normally play the game?

Not really: on continent maps my strategy is always: conquer neighbours, make contact with other continent, and decide the way to win. (diplo, culture, spacerace)
i never start transocean wars.
[*] Generally, what is the best strategy overall for a 100K culture win?

early conquest and rushbuild temple and libs in as many cities as possible
[*] What was your overall strategy regarding the pace of tech research?

don't bother with the expiration of GL, even if I have it. early university is more important. After that research has no importance, but i don't wanna be behind
[*] How did the civ traits come into play in your objectives?

Rel: nobrainer, also the 2 turn anarchy from rep to democraty for a 53 city civilization was great
Com: no idea, i had few cities over 6 pop
[*] How important to you was building Great Wonders, and why?

Not important: 20 temples make more culture then one gw. Just denial for other civs
[*] What did you learn about the C3C version of the Indians?

Nothing

I haven't made War Elephants
[*] Was there anything you would have done differently?

With more micromanaging i would have ended in the 1650. Not ennough workes, i also waited too long with rushing instead of researching
[*] Which AI civ gave you the most trouble and why?

None, I gave the victim of wars salpeter and money to rush musketmen
[*] How did the AU Mod affect gameplay (if applicable)

I lost a galley forgotting the 2 moves/ocean square rule.
I had just one army, but i liked it
never made cavalery or so ...
Tech tree hadn't much influence on me (i got math first and then was still the first to get philo)

And of course….
[*] Why haven’t you yet submitted your game save to the Hall of Fame?

It wasnt THAT good

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AU504 - Post-game comments

AU504 - Post-game comments

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