AU 504 Glory of Culture Pre-game Strategy Thoughts

[nbarclay]

If you post in this thread after you start playing, please be very careful not to include any potential spoiler information based on what you've learned during the game.

I'm starting this thread as a place where players can discuss thoughts regarding possible approaches to the game and tricks that can be used. Players who want to rely solely on their own thoughts will probably want to avoid reading this thread, but it seems like a thread like this could be useful for players who don't have much experience pursuing cultural victories and don't have a clear picture of how to try to win one as quickly as possible (and perhaps not even of how to win one at all).

[punkbass2000]

Well, personally I'm not discounting an immediate temple build (if Religious), unless we're the Arabs (then it's a granary). But generally, I think an early rush (sword or archer, probably) followed by immediate consolidation with culture buildings, then a follow up knight expansion with hopefully an MGL for a quick FP and a new generation of culture structures.

[Theseus]

Does anyone remember if we have a spreadsheet of something that delineates the amount of culture produced by each building and Wonder?

[punkbass2000]

I don't know if we do, but I think I could recite most of them off by heart (Well, maybe not all the Wonders.

[nbarclay]

I'll start off by saying that I have no experience deliberately pursuing 100K cultural victories and almost none winning them (since I normally win the space race before I get all that close to 100K culture). So my thoughts here are partly a matter of guesswork and inference from my understanding of how the game works in general, and partly from things I've read from others. Keep in mind that much of this is at the level of untested hypothesis. But maybe it will be useful and/or provide some basis for further discussion.


Empire Size

Contrary to how it might seem at first glance, the 100K cultural victory condition is not well suited to pure conventional builder strategies. With equal cultural improvements per city, it is necessary to have twice as many cities as an AI in order to double the AI's culture. (Remember that the 100K culture victory condition requires having double the culture of the closest rival.) Worse, the later cities get started on their cultural improvements, the more it is necessary to build additional culture to make up for lost time. Thus, a 100K cultural victory almost invariably involves some conquest to gain additional territory.

Dense city builds

One way to get more cities to build culture in is to build more densely. More, smaller cities can pack more cultural improvements into the same land area compared with fewer, larger ons.

A civilization's core is the first place where it can benefit from more, smaller cities because a civilization can fill in gaps with more densely packed cities without waiting to conquer additional territory. The down side to that approach is that with more, smaller cities, corruption due to number of cities gets to be a problem more quickly. So a civilization following that route would get a clear initial advantage, but higher corruption might negate that advantage in the longer term. Even so, it is certainly best not to plan room for core cities to grow past size 12 because such growth does not become possible until relatively late in the game - by which point a larger number of size 12 cities would have generated not only extra culture but also extra wealth, science, and perhaps military units.

In outlying areas that are essentially completely corrupt, the choice is a lot simpler. More cities means more places to build culture, so a true ICS-style layout with cities crammed together as closely as the game allows could provide a major advantage. On the other hand, players may feel like that's too much of an exploit. (Personally, I'm planning to use that trick heavily in this game.)

Governments

In pursuing a cultural victory, Feudalism may be a lot more interesting than it is normally. Pop rushing provides a way to get extra production for cultural improvements in areas with little coventional production without having to divert cash away from research. And with densely packed small towns in outlying areas, free unit support would be the next best thing to infinite - and some of the units can be used as military police in larger cities.

In addition, in the Apolyton University Mod, we reduced corruption for Feudalism from Problematic (same as Monarchy) to Minimal (same as Democracy). So for those playing with the AU Mod, Feudalism has lower corruption, and thus higher conventional production, than any other government of its era.

The down sides are that Feudalism produces less gross income than Republic and, unlike Monarchy, it suffers war weariness. (Worse, without Republic's commerce bonus, fighting war weariness with the luxury slider would be a lot harder.) Also, it comes later in the tech tree, although that may be offset a little by the fact that it does not require researching an extra, optional tech. And Feudalism can't use cash to rush build.

Under the standard rules, Republic would look a lot more attractive than under the AU Mod rules. Under the standard rules, its free unit support is decent if a singnificant number of cities are size 7 or larger. And with Feudalism having Problematic corruption under the standard rules, Republic has the lowest corruption and hence the highest conventional production of any early form of government.

Assuming there is still plenty of time to go when the industrial era comes around, Communsim may be worth considering. Its communal corruption model can provide outlying cities with just as good a production potential as core ones, which could be useful for catching them up in culture. But because both production and culture are lost during the time of anarchy, the change has disadvantages as well as advantages. Also, because communal corruption gets worse with larger numbers of cities, I don't know how Communism in the later stages off the game would fit together with a strategy of ICS-style city builds in outlying areas earlier in the game.

Culture vs. Military

Another interesting quesiton in pursuing cultural victory, and one I know little about, is how to balance building cultural improvements in cities you already have against building military units to gain more territory early in the game. If any cultural gurus would like to speak up on that issue, I imagine there are people who would be interested to hear your thoughts. (I'm one of them.)

[lockstep]

Originally posted by nbarclay
With equal cultural improvements per city, it is necessary to have twice as many cities as an AI in order to double the AI's culture.

I respectfully disagree. From my experience, the fact that an improvement's culture per turn doubles after 1000 years militates in favour of a 'build these temples and libraries ASAP'-approach that normally does without early conquest (save for crucial resources). And don't forget that '1000 years' means rather few turns in the early game. I've done quite some 100k-victories, and I reckon that owning +50% cities compared to the biggest AI (and about 25-30% of the entire landmass) will normally suffice for victory. In my typical games (on Monarch/Emperor), around 1750 AD the culture per turn of a bunch of universities (built around 750 AD) doubles, and I win about 1800-1850 AD.

OTOH, I fully agree that a 'fast' 100k-victory should be easier with dense city builds and doing largely without size 13+ cities, which runs counter to my playstyle.

EDIT: spelling

[jshelr]

There is no doubt that ancient temples will be great investments in this course.

higher difficulty levels are going to be a real test -- the ai will build all the cultural buildings and have the early wonders

i agree with nathan that the easy way is to get real big. this is probably a warmonger course. builders who do well deserve extra high grades

i don't disagree about alternative government considerations. but simply building units in the core for disbanding in corrupt cities is also an oldie and a goodie.

diplomacy to keep the ai at war runs the risk of creating a large ai civ -- with lots of culture

[Theseus]

Hmmm... Nathan's thoughts got me wondering...

DESPOTIC cultural victory?

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Theseus
Hmmm... Nathan's thoughts got me wondering...

DESPOTIC cultural victory?

Seems possible, but probably not very fast. You see, pop-rushing cathedrals and universities is a bit problematic . And i think rushing some of those will be needed to get a fast victory.


General thoughts on the matter.

I see two main choices players will have to make in this game. First is, when to stop early conquest, or whether to do it at all. Second is, when (in terms of technology or empire development) to continue conquest in order to speed up ones culture.

Early temples we need. Otherwise catching up on culture will hurt. Libraries too, and some ancient wonders if the RNG gods help. This one is pretty obvious. The added culture gets enormous with time. Also early culture helps prevent any flips during conquest.

Early conquest we need. The question is, do we end it fast, acquiring only so much land to have the biggest empire on the continent (or stop a potential KAI, like in my last game), or do we try taking the whole continent ASAP? The first choice gives many buildings with doubled culture and usually provides a very solid base for further conquest (Why further conquest? Because we need the speed for our culture. ). The second way could make the player lag in science and possibly in culture (!) initially. But it gives a huge empire almost without need of military (you know - the AI sea invasion skills...). And that can catch up on everything very fast. It remains to be seen, if it's fast enough concerning culture.

Timing the Golden Age for fast Cathedrals and/or Universities could be important. Or, if playing Babylon, timing it for libraries/markets/ancient wonders.


Personally, I prefer to make the early conquest short, then build hard for a looong time. Since I'm playing on Monarch and Emperor levels, there comes a point when core cities have literally nothing to build but units and Wealth. I don't build Wealth very often, you know.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Modo44
Early temples we need. Otherwise catching up on culture will hurt. Libraries too, and some ancient wonders if the RNG gods help.

Which makes me think... should we turn off SGL's? I realize that we generally go for as much of a 'regular' game s possible, but I mean, really, what does getting the Pyramids in 3000BC teach you about achieving a culture victory?

[Tassadar500]

But SGL's are part of the game. It teaches you the advantage of researching your own techs, rather than just buying them. I would be against turning SGL's off.

[Aqualung71]

Looking at the tech tree in the early Middle Ages provides some interesting choice, which probably extends the debate between builder vs military for a culture win.

A builder player going for culture may quite possibly want to beeline for Monotheism --> Theology --> Education and only then go back for Feudalism, Engineering, Invention and Gunpowder to get to muskets for empire defence. Depending on the AI tech situation, I would suggest you may probably go at least one further --> Astronomy for Copernicus.

At this stage you will be temptingly close to Economics (Smith's) and even Navigation (Magellan's) if you are so inclined. I would also suggest that a diversion to Music Theory for JS Bach will be more popular in this game than usual.

Taking this path of course would forgo the very popular Leo's pre-build.....though of course if things work out you may be able to trade Invention with an AI.

Nathan's points on Feudalism as a useful government for this game are quite interesting.....but fly in the face of the "Culture tech path" I have outlined above, requiring a diversion to Feudalism first.....which may not be a bad thing as it gives you Pikes for defence and MI for conquest of AI cities.

Of course, the trickiest thing in this game to manage will be ensuring you are able to build enough units in between all your cultural goodies. Production is key for this --> lots and lots and lots of workers! And even more so (on the workers) if you choose Feudalism and intentionally restrict many cities to size 6 (also saving on Aqueducts, which take quite some time to build and often hold up a town's progress substantially).

I will also be building Coliseums no doubt - can't remember the last time I built one of those

Banks will probably be last on my list of improvements.....but then, since I am usually a mega-researcher, I hardly ever build Banks anyway since they have no impact at 100% science.....at least, not until late in the Industrial age when I want Stock Exchanges and Wall Street.....and even then, usually only 5.

The order of building improvements will depend somewhat on the civ choice. If India, Temples and Coliseums and Cathedrals, if Korea, Libraries and Universities (with the Col and Cath as pre-builds). I believe the Korean cvombination gives you the most benefit, as I value a research boost more than happiness.

I can see substantial differences in the way this game will be played by those using the AU Mod and those using stock rules. Nathan has also touched on this - under stock rules Republic is almost a no-brainer early on.....while under the AU Mod and given this game's parameters, Feudalism may just be the way to go, particularly with its low corruption. With lots of workers and a reasonable military, Republic may be prohibitively expensive and support costs may well eclipse the commerce bonus.

All this talk on Wonder building of course comes with a serious caveat.....when I play Emperor I can rarely start getting wonders until the mid-middle ages, so a concerted effort will be required and shrewd tech negotiations in the ancient age.


Anyway, those are just my unstructured ramblings for now.....don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I wanted to contribute

[Aqualung71]

By the way, does the culture value of wonders double every 1000 years too? I forget!

[Dominae]

Yup.

[Aqualung71]

Thank you, quiz master. I knew you'd respond to that