The 3-Man Chariot

[Ision]

Further, aside from the "wheeled" issue, the 3MC is to the horseman exactly what the Babylonian Bowman is to the archer. And it can be argued that the fact that horsemen are generally considered more useful units than archers makes up, or even more than makes up, for the disadvantage of the "wheeled" attribute overall.

Actually not - the Bab bowman is clearly superior to the standard archer in every respect - the 3MC is not clearly superior on average to the horsemen. At the identical cost of 30 shields you gain a single defense point (very nice) but lose in the ability to traverse difficult terrain. Is the 3MC superior to the horseman ? I believe the answer is yes - but too such a limited degree due to the long term negatives of being wheeled until chivalry - that its advantages border on the inconsequential.

Nathans idea about giving them horsemen or a UU horse clone is very interesting - and certainly better than nothing. But it seems to me that it is somewhat of an unnessary step considering that the unit itself needs but the slighest tweak to accomplish the same thing without the bother.

As always Nathans insight is insightful and appreciated.

Ision

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Ision


Actually not - the Bab bowman is clearly superior to the standard archer in every respect - the 3MC is not clearly superior on average to the horsemen. At the identical cost of 30 shields you gain a single defense point (very nice) but lose in the ability to traverse difficult terrain.

More precisely, you lose the ability to traverse difficult terrain without its being roaded first. In one of the PtW AU games, Dominae thought he'd largely crippled Egypt by giving us a map where our enemies were hidden behind jungles and mountains. I dealt with the situation by sending in a big work gang to road my way through, and once I got into my enemies' cores, I could often take advantage of enemy roads where terrain problems would have gotten in my way. Granted, the Hittites would need either twice as many workers or twice as much time to do the same thing, but the idea that bad terrain makes 3MCs completely useless is a bit exaggerated - at least for human players. (Unfortunately, AIs aren't good enough at planning ahead to do that.)

[Ision]

Also,

Let me say that it is not my intent to 'open any can of worms' - I fully understand that the CIVs cannot, nor should be made equal.

However, I believe that this is a unique case diffrent from any other CIV in the game, and here are my reasons:

1. No other UU in the game replaces 2 other units (chariots and horsemen).

2. No other UU in the game leaves it CIV without a viable alternative to that unit. In other words, the HItts and Hitts alone posses no non-wheeled 2 movement unit for over an entire age.

3. No other UU in the game fails to provide 1 clear advantage over the unit it replaces without this being offset by a disadvantage. For example: the Rider cost the same as a knight but has an extra movement point, the Elephant has the extra Hp and no resource status, the Ansar Warrior loses a defense point in comparision to the standard knight- BUT, gains 2 advantages (extra movement point and lower shield cost).

The 3MC uniquely stands alone as being a near 'wash out' in what it gains to what it loses.

Ision

[alexman]

Actually, Hoplites, Numidian Mercenaries, and Swiss Mercenaries (unless there is no Iron) replace two regular units.

Also, if you count increased cost as a disadvantege, there are several UU that offset their advantage with a disadvantage.

[Ision]

Hops and N.Mecs eh.....

I stand corrected.

Nevertheless, the 2 exceptions you gave are at least equal to the second unit it replaces (hoplite and pikeman), and even superior to both units it replaces (n. merc to spears and pikes). The 3MC is superior to the standard chariot, no doubt, but at the cost of 20 more shields - a status that neither the merc or hop have for a unit available in the first tech line, also the second unit it replaces it is not clearly at least equal to.

It has often been commented on how a 30 shield at start unit that does not upgrade from a lower unit can hinder the AI more than it helps - at least in the case of the Merc - the unit is only 10 shields more expensive than the spear and it offers a clear and long-lasting advantage over the unit it replaces. With the 3MC its not even close.

no contest.

Ision

[Ision]

btw alexman - I always got a kick out that bullfrog avatar of yours -lol-

[alexman]

It's left over from a PBEM game I once played as the French, who as we know are pink in Civ3.

[nbarclay]

Ision, my "can of worms" objections are aimed specifically against the idea of trying to offset the 3MC's Wheeled disadvantage by giving it some other kind of advantage. As I keep saying, that kind of approach would make the 3MC more useful in situations where it is already useful without addressing the problem of the Hittites' not having a non-wheeled fast-mover until Chivalry in any meaningful way. In my view, that is exactly the opposite of what a good solution should look like.

I have no "can of worms" objections to letting the Hittites build horsemen or to eliminating the Wheeled attribute from the 3MC. Either would address what I see as a legitimate problem without making the UU better in situations where it already provides a clear advantage. Personally, of those two, I like the idea of letting the Hittites build horsemen better because it preserves the flavor that the 3MC is a chariot rather than making the heaviest type of chariot in the game the only one not hindered by being wheeled.

[Ision]

I have no "can of worms" objections to letting the Hittites build horsemen or to eliminating the Wheeled attribute from the 3MC. Either would address what I see as a legitimate problem without making the UU better in situations where it already provides a clear advantage.

amen, Nathan


Ision

[nbarclay]

If ducki can agree to this, we're down to five options (unless I've missed something):

A) Eliminate the Wheeled attribute from the 3-man Chariot.

B) Eliminate the Wheeled attribute from the 3-man Chariot, move the unit to the Horseback Riding tech, and let the Hittites build regular chariots until then

C) Let the Hittites build standard horsemen.

D) Let the Hittites build a horseman clone that would trigger a GA.

E) No change.

Does anyone have any other proposals we need to consider?

[CarnalCanaan]

My two cents...

I've enjoyed playing as the Hittites (and against them) because in most of my games the 'wheeled' handicap doesn't seem to be much of a handicap. In even the most mountainous of terrain there's almost always a pass. Jungles are the killer though; there's rarely a path through them. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't seem to get the military engineering aspect of road building. On the other hand, it does cause a player (AI or human) to play according to the environment. (You may want to invade Babylon, but the Creator has decided for you that the Ottomans to your north shall be your victims... Hebraic Prophesy in a computer game?!)

Essentially, the 3-man Chariot is a fast Numidian Mercenary. Both allow for cost-effective invasions and the speed of the 3MC allows for minimal-cost/reactive defenses (a la Zulu Impis). The added speed is offset by the 'wheeled' handicap. Remeber, the 3MC has the best defense enjoyed by most other civs until the Middle Ages AND it's fast.

Like most early UUs, its reign is short but with a defense of 2 & withdrawl ability it can be used as reasonable fodder in Middle Ages invasions. If there are any changes I'd like to see, it would be the zero-range bombardment but if that were done, I'd want to see the same added to the War Chariot.

Besides, it's a big ol' honkin' SOB and it's fun watching your war machines rumble through your enemy's lands, trampling citizenry underfoot.

[ducki]

So letting the Hittites build horsemen or horseman clones would be within existing precedent rather than setting a new precedent that would encourage if not demand modifying other UUs as well.

I disagree with the logic here - while we have considered allowing a civ to build the standard unit that its UU replaces, we've never agreed to it, so there is, indeed, no precedent for actually implementing this.

As you mentioned, in the case of the GS, we investigated with a course. We've also followed up a Chasqui change with an investigative course, albeit one more focused on pillaging.

In one post, you mention that the wheeled attribute can sometimes provide a distinct disadvantage, but in supporting a change, seem to make the assumption that the wheeled attribute does generally provide a disadvantage.

I'm not convinced that the wheeled attribute is a distinct, persistent, changed-necessitating disadvantage in light of the discussion.

For that reason, I'd like to add a 6th and 7th option to the proposal.

F) Move 3MC to HBR, allow Hittites to build Chariots and upgrade into 3MC. Retain wheeled attribute.

G) Postpone a vote pending a course starring the Hittites as the Player Civ - we've seen a good bit of the Hittites in the AIs hands recently, so all that's missing is a large scale investigation by AU in general, so that more of us can weigh in with more in-depth experience with the unit and the traits. Should be a fairly standard, middle of the road map, on the large side of standard size, or on a largish landmass of a standard size map, so as to not unnecessarily nerf the traits.


These are just my opinions. It seems that under certain map-specific conditions, the UU can be less advantageous than on other maps, but I think we disagree that that is reason enough for a change. If I ever get my system back up, maybe I can investigate on my own, but I think the reasoning for a change is shaky enough that it deserves larger scale investigation.

[Aqualung71]

I don't want to wade into the discussion on either side, but I do think that an AU course with the Hittites is a good example. I've noticed a few people commenting that they've never tried the Hittites, and I don't recall having done so myself either. Why not?

Either that or my other pet hate, the Koreans. But then, everyone hates them right?

[ducki]

Just curious why you don't want to join the discussion, Aqualung71? Is it simply a lack of experience with the Hittites that prevents you voicing an opinion?

[Dominae]

The argument that the 3MC is inferior for Jungle/Mountain starting locations is analogous to the argument that Immortals, Gallics, etc. are inferior for Iron-less starting locations. War Chariots are sometimes completely useless, but no one here is complaining about them.

The only thing allowing the Hittites to build Horsemen will accomplish is make them less interesting, because 50%+ of the time the extra HP on the unit is not worth the trouble. You will be creating a civ without a UU.

I humbly recommend that you leave the Wheeled ability in place to preserve the flavor of the unit (and the civ as a whole), and improve the 3MC in another way. 25 Shield cost sounds reasonable.