Knight Templar

[pvzh]

Are there any plans to improve KT/Crusaders combo? I, personally, never try to get it nor care much if AI got it. The unit itself is somewhat underpowered IMHO.

I would propose to increase attack value to 6 and/or lower time per unit to 4 or even 3.

[ducki]

Hmmm... I've been fairly happy with it when I get it - that's a lot of shields that could go into knights, but 5 attack is pretty strong for the time.
And Crusaders can build forts.
And it's units you don't have to take time to build, so your queue is free to do other stuff.

The reason it's not so scary for the AI to get it is that my "defenses" (and likely yours) are fairly offensive, so they rarely get to actually attack a town and they are no stronger on defense than your average defender of the age.

Any stronger for the human and I think it's too strong - it would give them a higher attack rating than Cavalry in the AU mod and, IIRC, equivalent attack the the Rifleman's defense.

I, personally, think the wonder and the unit are well balanced, considering the timeframe and contemporary units.

[alexman]

I have not been tempted to build the Wonder either, so I don't have first-hand experience.

However, one subtle way to strengthen the Crusader would be to have it upgrade to Guerilla, like the other medieval slow movers. This would make it even more useful later when it becomes TOW Infantry.

If people think the Wonder is too weak, I wouldn't be opposed to increasing the frequency of unit spawning to 1 unit per 4 turns, but I don't think it's necessary to boost the Crusader's stats.

[nbarclay]

A whole lot depends on when Chivalry is researched and on the overall tech pace of the game. With a fast tech pace, late discovery of Chivalry, and no prebuild, the wonder can fail to even come close to paying for itself. On the other hand, with a beeline to Chivalry, a slow tech pace through the middle ages, and possibly a prebuild to get the wonder into operation sooner, it could be a lot more worthwhile. My own playing style is such that about the only reason I build the Knights Templar is generally to add it to my wonder collection, but I view that as a consequence of how I play rather than as an issue of the wonder being inherently worthless.

Nathan

[ducki]

I'm rather fond of knight wars so I will often work extra hard to get knights, especially if I can get them before my neighbors have pikes.

Aside from ToE, I don't generally pre-build - well, not on purpose - so while the KT might occasionally be mine due to being cascaded into it, it has never felt like the boobie prize that the Great Wall used to be.

Good points about differing playstyles affecting the relative value of the wonder and the units, nathan

[Arrian]

KT is not a wonder I really care about. It's not that it's a bad wonder, it's just there are so many others around that time that I want more (Leos, Sistine, Sun Tzu, Bach, Smith, Cops, Newton, Magellan... all of those I'd put in front of the KT). I think alexman's suggestion of allowing the Crusaders to upgrade is a good one. That will help the AI a bit.

-Arrian

[Brundlefly]

As a builder, KT helps me quite a bit as far as defending my civilization. I also use crusaders as part of a 10-turn skirmish during early medieval to acquire perhaps one of the enemies cities to make them cough up a tech or gold in exchange for peace. The 'build fortress' feature is not that useful because fortresses are not too useful - you must keep them manned and my military is barely large enough to keep my cities manned until my first major war in late medieval/early industrial..

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Arrian
KT is not a wonder I really care about. It's not that it's a bad wonder, it's just there are so many others around that time that I want more (Leos, Sistine, Sun Tzu, Bach, Smith, Cops, Newton, Magellan... all of those I'd put in front of the KT). I think alexman's suggestion of allowing the Crusaders to upgrade is a good one. That will help the AI a bit.

-Arrian

Ditto.

[Dominae]

I thought the AI was bad at upgrading?

A Wonder that pops out Guerilla every 5 turns is a little too good IMO (especially the improved version of the Guerilla).


Dominae

[Theseus]

The stronger AI civs in the AU Mod, at least in AU 501 and pzvh's Feudalism game, seem very good at upgrading.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Dominae
A Wonder that pops out Guerilla every 5 turns is a little too good IMO.

I'm not sure how you mean this, but you would still need the cash to upgrade your Crusaders (60 gold for each).

The AI definitely does a good job in upgrading as long as it has the cash.

[Dominae]

What I'm saying is that I can see the human player making much better use out of the improved version of the Wonder than the AI, moreso than the stock version.


Dominae

[Theseus]

Unless I were playing a slowmover game (which happens only very occasionally, as I am with pvzh's game), I still wouldn't bother much with the KT, unless via cascade, even with the Guerilla upgrade. I definitely see this as helping the AI more than the player.

[vmxa1]

I find it to be not all that great. I tend to use the crusaders as mobile shields after while.

[Aqualung71]

....but the graphic's pretty cool

I think KT is just about right. I build it when I can, but never instead of Sistine or Bach (or HG if I'm in with a chance on that, which is rarely). The 5 attack is the best of its day, even if a little slow, and it can defend reasonably. It's nice to prop up your military defences and free-up your build queues for more important things.

I don't agree it should be upgradable - too powerful then, same as Ancient Cavalry.

In AU501 I used Crusaders to help capture the Egyptian rubber, so it was still useful then against a militarily backward opponent. And the ability to build a fortress to secure that particular chokepoint was handy - I didn't have room in my Galleons at the time to bring workers along for the ride.