AU mod: The Privateer

[alexman]

But it's the same currently with Transports. They have the same defense as the attack of Frigates and Privateers, not to mention the same defense as the defense of Caravels.

The unit strengths in Civ3 are not about realism, they are about game play balance. Compare the attack of Longbowmen to that of Riflemen.

[Arrian]

I think privateers are pretty much fine.

If anything must be done, I'd give them a slight reduction in build cost, or perhaps give them offensive bombard.

-Arrian

[ducki]

The unit strengths in Civ3 are not about realism, they are about game play balance.

I understand that. What I don't understand is how a curragh - basically a bunch of reeds tied together with a sheet and a stick in the middle - could be considered balanced if able to fairly reliably - given proper attack order - sink the middle age transports. That does not seem balanced to me. Neither does the transport thing you mentioned.

Compare the attack of Longbowmen to that of Riflemen.

Ever hear of a guy named Custer? Ever had a Brit explain the two-fingered salute? These two stats seem in line with "believability" and balanced with the game.

I am not after realism to the level of simulation, I'm just thinking that big oceangoing vessels ought not to be easily sinkable by coastal rafts for all intents and purposes.

Does that mean the Transport needs a bit of a boost? Probably. But that'll need it's own thread.


On another note, what effects - good and bad - would dropping the Middle Age transport's defense have with regard to other ships of the era? What I'm getting at is, if we pretend like the Privateer is balanced or doesn't exist, how would this change affect the other facets of the naval game in the late Middle Ages - particularly the AI?

[alexman]

Sorry, I don't see how the Curragh and Galleon have a different relationship than a Sipahi attacking a Tank in the open. Also, Custer's defeat is mentioned in history books as something spectacular, but Riflemen actually do have the same attack factor as Med. Infantry, which means that they always have the same chance to defeat another unit on attack.

Of course, for those still concerned about realism, it's always possible to remove the attack factor from Curraghs completely.

By the way, lowering the defense of transports is a good thing for naval power. It was done on purpose by the designers to encourage building other types of ships, and the AI handles it very well. As mentioned above, the question is whether to add the "requires escort" flag to Galleons.

Just to be clear, I agree that Privateers are fairly well balanced as they are now. We will, however, have a vote, so am proposing to put the change to Caravels and Galleons under consideration instead of a change to Privateers themselves. Any objections (besides ducki, of course)?

[ducki]

I don't count.


Just to address a couple of things, I think bringing the Sipahi into this is a bit offbase. It's a UU and an extra strong one at that, however, there's probably some supporting historical information that would allow favorable comparison of mounted Ottomans vs. Tanks. I'll have to check on that just for fun.

I kinda like the idea of removing attack from the curragh, though, and not just based on the proposed change to other units. Change the stats to reflect the primarily scouting purpose it actually serves in the game anyways.

Not that any of that will count for anything.


Just pokin' back, alexman.
(just to be sure - )

[Dominae]

I know this is not the thread to propose this, but: how about setting both the Attack and Defense values of Curraghs to 0? Makes things a bit more interesting for the human player, and it's not like it hurts the AI.


Dominae

[Krill]

how about setting both the Attack and Defense values of Curraghs to 0?

But if it encounters a barb galley, then byebye curragh. Better to make it 0.1.2, so it can't attack, (albeit this, therefore, is change for changes sake).

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Krill
But if it encounters a barb galley, then byebye curragh.

That's kind of the point...

[Arrian]

Hmm...

On the one hand, I like the idea, since it makes sense to me that the curragh is effectively a waterborne scout, and should be easy prey for barbarian pirates.

On the other, I worry that the arrival of barb galleys might render curraghs largely useless too soon.

What is the trigger for barb galley spawning? It is something like "2 civs have map making?"

-Arrian

[alexman]

It's an interesting suggestion, but I think that it it would be very frustrating, especially for non-seafaring civs. Avoiding barbarians would become a matter of luck: If you move one tile and see a barb galley two tiles away (you can't see farther than that), you will be within striking distance of that galley even if you retreat to where you came from.

[Krill]

That's kind of the point...

On lower difficulty levels, fine, but I don't want to be spending 15 shields on ships that can be sunk 4 turns after being built.
With the present rules for slowing/stopping inter continental contacts, why does this need to be altered?

It can destroy the chance of getting contacts on your own continent, and since the stock version created the curragh for early contacts, you are breaching one of the AU rules for no (worthwhile) reason.

You, Dominae, are the panel member who advocates sticking to the stock rules, so why does this change interest you?
(Could you please answer that, because I can't)

(And all of this is, of course, IMO, so please don't shout at me)

[Krill]

Damn, beaten to it by alexman

[Dominae]

The AI below Sid never builds Curraghs. I would still build Curraghs despite Barb pirates, and most of the time I would get my 15-Shields worth.

Curraghs should be like Scouts, not Warriors. Scouts die to Barb Horsemen just like Curraghs would die to Barb Galleys (as alexman describes).

I think this is a worthy change (not just for the sake change) because it improves gameplay in precisely the ways the AU mod is supposed to.


Dominae

[alexman]

Ah, but the AU mod AI is not your silly stock AI. They build plenty of Curraghs.

Still, I'm not decided on whether the harder decision on whether to build Curraghs is worth the change. It might.

[Krill]

If you are going to compare it to the scout, remember that
1) the scout can only be built by expansionist civs
2) It costs 50% more than a scout, and is no where near as useful, because any contacts you can get with a curragh you can get with a galley (IE no trade agreements)
3) No/very little land is discovered

Hence they a purely for contacts. Via land you can use warriors, but there is no option for defensive sea vessels until MM.