AU501 - Post-game comments

[Dominae]

This is the last thread dedicated to AU501: The Power of Seafaring! I thought it might be a good idea to create a "review" thread, because discussions in the DAR threads can get sort of chaotic.

You can discuss anything here you want concerning AU501, because it's the topmost spoiler thread; [B]do not read any further if you've not finished the game yet[B] (hopefully that will give incentive to those of you who never finish games).

Here are some questions to get you started:

1. What did you learn about the power of Seafaring?
2. About Civ3 in general?
3. Was there anything you would have done differently?
4. Which civ gave you the most trouble, and why?
5. What did you think of the Plague?
6. How did the AU mod affect gameplay?
7. Did you find any Easter eggs?!

[ZargonX]

Some initial answers, with more in-depth tommorow

1. What did you learn about the power of Seafaring?

Early exploration and contact making can definately give you an edge in the tech race. Even if it doesn't put you ahead, it will keep you even if you trade properly. And extra move ships makes military movement even easier; ferrying troops becomes almost enjoyable

2. About Civ3 in general?

It can make a weekend disappear...

3. Was there anything you would have done differently?

I didn't REX out onto the nearby islands aggressively enough in the early years. Got caught up improving my core, and by the time I got around to it, others had grabbed most of them.

4. Which civ gave you the most trouble, and why?

Maya Maya hate hate kill kill. Those jerkwads snuck attack my lightly defended far away villages shortly after we first met, and from there on in we were on and off for war for the rest of the game. They would make GPT deals then sneak attack the next turn. They got theirs in the end, though. Constant alliances against them (led by me, of course ) knocked them out of the tech running.

5. What did you think of the Plague?

You know, I heard the others talk about it, but I never had it once the whole game. I guess that was to make up for never getting any GLs...

6. How did the AU mod affect gameplay?

I was quite pleased with the way the AU mod worked out. None of the changes felt too glaring or struck me as unbalancing. Though it was a bit of a gaff when I forgot that Cavalry had been weakened

7. Did you find any Easter eggs?!

Other than the mighty whale breeding grounds, nope

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ZargonX
It can make a weekend disappear...

Well, you were the first to finish...good work!

[cracky]

Re: AU501 - Post-game comments

1. What did you learn about the power of Seafaring?

That 4 move Curraghs and 5 move Dromons are a lot of fun.

4. Which civ gave you the most trouble, and why?

The damned Dutch. Despite having 1/3rd of my landmass, they maintained tech parity throughout the game and consistently had 2 to 3 times as much gold in the bank as I did. Oh, and there was that little bit of sabotage against my SS exterior casing which did nothing for our friendship. Maybe they had a perfectly placed FP, but more than likely they just had a better timed golden age (Industrial vs. my early middle ages).

5. What did you think of the Plague?

This was the first time I'd seen the effects of the plague in-game. It only struck one city, and a small desert one at that, so the effect was quite minor. More like two turns of disease than "The Black Death". Come to think of it, the volcanos were a much bigger hastle. I think I lost 2 AC and maybe 3 workers to eruptions, not to mention all those clean-up turns.

7. Did you find any Easter eggs?!

Just the whales... And why in nearly 6000 years of history couldn't my civilization discover whaling ships?

other observations:

For one, I'm definitely going to try the AU mod next time. Also, for one of my first handful of games on monarch, I think I did fairly well, but I absolutely have to start controlling my workers. Those peons make idiotic improvement choices ALL THE TIME.

Having not conquered the Hittites I had no salt pepper throughout the game. It was actually quite refreshing not to have the standard cavalry rush. I ended up not building a single unit that required salt-pepper and didn't end up suffering for it. In fact, I ended up fighting only 2 battles after the Sumerians were wiped out with knights. Being more of a fighter than a builder this was an interesting change.

Lack of leaders: After winning, I checked the little log that's run by turn-by-turn. I had one MGL and the Dutch has one SGL. For 100 years of modern warfare between every civ but me, as well as plently of earlier wars including my conquest of two civs, and every tech discovered but 4, this seems to be too few leaders. (Yes, I'd be whistling a different tune if I'd had an SGL, but hey).

So, when's the next course due out?

[Dominae]

Nice game, cracky...and welcome to AU!

This was the first time I'd seen the effects of the plague in-game. It only struck one city, and a small desert one at that, so the effect was quite minor. More like two turns of disease than "The Black Death". Come to think of it, the volcanos were a much bigger hastle. I think I lost 2 AC and maybe 3 workers to eruptions, not to mention all those clean-up turns.

I slightly increased the effects of Volanoes for this scenario, and reduced the effects of the Plague.


Dominae

[vmxa1]

"I slightly increased the effects of Volanoes for this scenario, and reduced the effects of the Plague."

So that is why they flow onto non adjacent tiles?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by vmxa1
So that is why they flow onto non adjacent tiles?

No, that's standard. They just erupt more frequently in this scenario.


Dominae

[vmxa1]

So it is not true that they only hit adjacent tiles? I had seen that posted many times, but I never seemed to remember what I have seen to say for sure if it was right or wrong.

[Dominae]

If you go in the Editor, you'll see that the only Volcano variable you can play with is the Max Eruption Period. By default this is set at 5000 years, meaning that each Volcano erupts at least once between 4000BC and 1000AD. I played with this value to make them erupt more often in this scenario.

So, whatever you witness is terms of lava flow is part of the stock rules (i.e. not my fault!).


Dominae

[ZargonX]

One thing I realized today, looking back at the game and reading some other's comments; the AI never once attacked me on an island I fully controlled. That is, they never landed on my home island, never landed on Japan's island, and only assaulted me on the Sumerian island while I was still battling the Sumerians for control of it. Don't know why they never tried to contest me on my own lands..I mean, c'mon, my capital was defended by a warrior for 80% of the game

[cracky]

Volcanos....

"I slightly increased the effects of Volanoes for this scenario, and reduced the effects of the Plague."


This might already be answered elsewhere. If it is, sorry for the double post....


Thinking back on the game, I don't think I had any eruptions in the Industrial or Modern era. Ok, just checked my DARs. The last eruption was in 230 AD. From 4000BC to 230AD I saw six eruptions: 2 on the home island, one badly timed one in Japan, and three on the coal island. For those three volcanos, that's an eruption every 700 on average. But for next 1600 years (until the end of the game basically) I saw no eruptions. Are volcanic eruptions date sensitive or era sensitive?

I'm guessing no and that I just got lucky there. Of course there's always the chance that I forgot to write down an eruption after RRs were everywhere, due to the quick and easy clean-up.

"...and welcome to AU!"

Thanks! Oh, and I think I might be catching the MM bug. Look out, it's really contagious!

[nbarclay]

Moving a discussion from the DAR 5 thread here:

Originally posted by Dominae


I suppose I should answer this. In formulating my answer, I've looked at the issue from two vantage points:

1. Strategic resource scarcity in AU501 is not conducive to the goals of AU.

I'm not really sure why the lack of resources around the starting location makes you "good" strategy of expansion somehow become "bad"; you've been on a 4-turn research pace throughout the Industrial era, so you must be doing something right. And I'm also not sure why it's "bad" strategy to claim islands, especially when they're prime locations for Strategic resources (for instance, the Tundra islands near the poles, or the numerous Jungle islands near the equator are highly likely to contain Oil/Aluminum and Coal, respectively; although Rubber does appear in Jungle, there's no guarantees that it will because it can also be present in Forest). The only "bad" strategy that I've noticed is expecting to have Strategic resources and not doing a thing about it (other than complain about the map) when this is not the case.

If you've played even just a handful of Conquests games you'll know that probably the biggest change to the epic game is resource distribution. The map for this scenario, although admittedly "cooked", is far from a "perversion" of what the map generator typically serves up in C3C. I can point you to numerous threads on how the resource distribution now "sucks", both in the Conquests and General forums. Since this is a big issue, I feel an AU game that brings it to the fore but without prior warning to the players is completely justified. And, as just stated above, this particular map is not at all far from what you could potentially get in a random map game.

2. Resource scarcity in AU501 is just plain not fun.

Of course, we're trying to enjoy ourselves here, not just learn about Civ3. However, different people have fun in different ways. Although many of us do enjoy UP-style games, it's simply not a good idea to enjoyment and educational purposes to make AU courses to be too easy. Therefore as a scenario creator I feel it's smart practice not to spoon-feed those players who want UP all the time, and this includes "easy" resource distribution. Of course I know how far you will be able to expand militarily, that's why I put some of the Strategic resources a bit further. There's no point in getting angry because you're learning what the course is meant to teach you (or being challenged in new/interesting ways).

For your case in particular, it seems pretty clear to me that you got bummed out when you realised you would have to do a bit of extra work to secure Rubber. I feel confident in saying this because you did not react negatively to the other "unrealistic" map features, such as the Coal that neatly feel within your expansion reach, or the perfect Sea lanes that made trading possible with every other civ. But when Rubber does not fall within your borders, whoa! that's a problem.

I'm sure you can find a way to leverage your impressive tech advantage into securement of a Rubber resource. Whether this is fun or not to you I take no responsibility for. Some (most?) people are actually enjoying the challenge:

Neither of these items hits even close to my objection. If I'm done out of a resource fair and square by the map generator, I can live with that. When you play the odds regarding whether you probably have enough of the right kind of land to have a particular resource, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Of course the better you understand the game, the more often you guess correctly regarding how likely you are to need to settle or conquer more territory to get a resource.

But I think it perverts the game when the scenario designer arbitrarily redistributes resources in a way that rewards some strategies and leaves others at a disadvantage. When that happens, we are no longer playing the odds based on our knowledge of the game, but rather playing a guessing game regarding the arbitrary whims of the scenario designer. The question is no longer (for example), "Do I have enough of the right kind of land that rubber probably won't be a problem?" but rather becomes, "Will Dominae let me have rubber if I control the land I currently do?" That takes away one of the key strategic elements of Civ 3: trying to figure out what the resource situation is likely to be like in the future based on the amount and type of land you control. It is that aspect that I don't view as conducive to the goals of Apolyton University - unless, of course, the goal of a particular game is to deal with special resource situations and players know not to expect a normal resource distribution.

That's not to say that I always consider it inappropriate for an AU scenario developer to change resource allocation. The big question in my mind is, "Will the change benefit/undermine everyone, or will it reward players who adopt some styles of play and leave those who adopt others at a disadvantage?" If the latter, I view the deliberate manipulation of resources as a problem because it leaves people who try to play the odds playing with loaded dice.

As for the effect on me personally in this particular game, if this were how the game came from the map generator, I would have simply accepted it as the luck of the draw. On the plus side, I got my first real chance to play with TOW Infantry in an offensive capacity. On the minus side, I had to launch an overseas invasion that I would just as soon have done without (although I certainly wasn't counting on having every resource needed for the space race without having to attack someone sooner or later). What really bothers me is not so much how the resource distribution affected the game, but rather the feeling of having been cheated out of a fair chance to have most or all of the resources I needed with the amount of land I had claimed.

Regarding the sea access to all the other civs, I haven't complained about it, but I can't say I'm thrilled either. That aspect of the game's design vastly increased the potential value of suicide curraughs in obtaining early contact (at least for those of us using the AU Mod), and made a joke out of my decision not to send a suicide curraugh north through the western sea lane because it would most likely run into a dead end (or, of course, end up just plain dead). Both that and the enhanced power of the Great Lighthouse (which I benefitted from) resulted in arbitrary changes in the value of particular strategies. Since I think the odds of a strategy working in an AU game generally ought to roughly reflect the odds of its working in a regular game, I do not view such deliberately introduced anomalies as a good thing.

[nbarclay]

Re: AU501 - Post-game comments

Originally posted by Dominae

1. What did you learn about the power of Seafaring?

I've played a few games and parts of games with Seafaring civs before, so the only really big thing for me this game was the Dromon (which I'd never used before). It's combination of abilities for transport, sea supremacy, and shore bombardment (including the ability to move into coastal cities and bombard units next to them) make it a much more powerful UU than I'd realized it would be on archipelago maps. The Seafaring trait itself is definitely nice for getting early contacts, but we already knew that, right?

3. Was there anything you would have done differently?

Two things. 1) I'd do a better job escorting my settlers since I had the warrior production capacity to do so. Losing an early settler was annoying.

2) I would build focus more on Dromons and less on swordsmen for the invasion of Japan. I wasn't even thinking about using Dromons as bombardment units to soften up enemy stacks when I planned and executed the invasion.

5. What did you think of the Plague?

The vultures were pretty, but othewise, I would have rather done without it. Some people might like having random elements mess up their plans occasionally, but I'm not one of them. I'm just glad the plague outbreak wasn't any worse than it was.

6. How did the AU mod affect gameplay?

The really big thing ws that I didn't use suicide ships the way I normally would as a Seafaring civ. With the reduced movement rate for curraughs in sea and their inabilty to enter ocean, I didn't want to take the chance trying to explore through sea lanes. Similarly, the reduced movement rate for oceans made suicide dromons a lot less attractive.

Due to a bug in the Mod, galleons and caravels were also affected by the movement penalty fo oceans, which discouraged me from trying to explore the oceans even after I had Magnetism. But since that bug will presumably be fixed in future versions, it's not a long-term concern.

The AU Mod did make me consider switching to Democracy a bit more seriously than I would have without the free unit support we put in. With how spread out my empire was, I probably would have switched if it weren't for the fact that I was already researching about as quickly as the game allows. As it was, going through the anarchy (and associated food problems) that would have been involved in a change of government didn't seem worthwhile.

7. Did you find any Easter eggs?!

The whale breeding ground with no land nearby, of course. Also, a certain initially uninhabited island just happened to have a potential Iron Works site. I can't say for sure that that's Dominae's doing, but I'm certainly suspicious. A Communist civ would find that island especially interesting.

Depending on how one defines "Easter egg," any or all of the following might also be regarded as Easter eggs.

1) The existence of a source of incense on our home land mass looks rather suspicious since the main place where incense existed was Hittite lands.

2) Dominae pretty clearly added a sea lane or two.

3) The distribution of industrial and modern resources absolutely reeks of large-scale tampering. Us and our three closest neighbors with not a single industrial or modern resource on our starting land masses combined? Industrial and modern resources on all but two of the uninhabited islands (with one of the two left out being the one closest to us)? No modern resources at all on our home island, or on any of the other land masses within easy reach? The strategic resource distribution in this game might not be theoretically impossible for a randomly generated map, but the odds against such a distribution are astronomical.

[ZargonX]

Regarding the resource scarcity, it caused problems for me mostly because I was playing a compact builder-type game. The thing was, none of the AI had extras of the resources, so trading was difficult. England had extra coal, fortunately, which I was able to obtain on several occasions. There was no extra oil or aluminum, forcing me into war with the Sumerians for oil, and temple-rushing/harbor-rushing a tiny city out on a tundra isle for Aluminum. The real problem was uranium, which I needed for the SS win. Luckily, Russia had taken over Egyptian territory, giving them access to 2 uranium. By gifting them enough technology to advance them to fission, I was able to buy 1 off them long enough to win the game. I guess my point is that the resource spread was definately difficult, but doable. What would have made it slightly more acceptable would have been giving the AIs an extra or two to encourage more diplmatic haggling for them.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
It is that aspect that I don't view as conducive to the goals of Apolyton University - unless, of course, the goal of a particular game is to deal with special resource situations and players know not to expect a normal resource distribution.

You just said yourself that the resource distribution was certainly possible. In my previous post, I think I made a pretty strong case that the resource distribution was quite a bit more plausible than you make it out to be (far from "astronomical"). The only thing that's really fishy about the resource distribution is the small southern islands that contain one of each Industrial era resource save Coal (and these were last-minute additions designed to prevent anyone from claiming the scenario is "too evil").

It's certainly "fishy' that, from the human player's perspective, that many of the late-game resources are quite far away. But this is completely subjective. Just because the scenario was intentionally created this way does not mean invalidate it as a "normal"-type game (you would hate to see how much map tampering I did with the Power of Randomness!). Would it convince you to hear that Russia's island had no Iron or Horses when I first generated the map in the editor? If I had placed you in that position, you would complained even more.

Finally, I would just like to point out that your "strategy" of expanding into a lot of land then expecting to have most if not all of the resources you need is, among other things, highly boring. I was expecting many of the more experienced players to enjoy a little late-game challenge (like the elusive massive inter-continental invasions Theseus craves for), but apparently you like to win in the early-game, and coast in the late-game. Obviously this scenario was simply not for you then.

Any volunteers for setting up AU502?


Dominae