AU501 - DAR3: Contact with all other civs

[jshelr]

Just a short update now that Liz has been met. At 660ad the Byz had run the Hittites out of their main continent and southern island. We have the lower gems near Sumaria as well. Gilgamesh lacks saltpeter, horses, and he's small. No problem.

Banks in the core area are nearing full completion. We are three required techs behind the impressive Dutch performance, but not really worried.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by jshelr
Just a short update now that Liz has been met. At 660ad the Byz had run the Hittites out of their main continent and southern island. We have the lower gems near Sumaria as well. Gilgamesh lacks saltpeter, horses, and he's small. No problem.

Banks in the core area are nearing full completion. We are three required techs behind the impressive Dutch performance, but not really worried.

Okay so I saw 660bc at first not 660ad and my jaw was about to drop that you had banks. Oh the games our minds play with the things we see.

[Cort Haus]

Am I the only one so far with an Army stuck on an Island waiting for Galleons?

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Am I the only one so far with an Army stuck on an Island waiting for Galleons?

I haven't even seen any type of great leader yet. No armies for me...yet hopefully.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Am I the only one so far with an Army stuck on an Island waiting for Galleons?

You might be, but I only put 2 knights in mine, so a caravel could carry it.

[ZargonX]

I haven't even seen any type of great leader yet. No armies for me...yet hopefully.

Since it's been brought up, I'll just complain now I've finished the course, and in my countless elite victories, I did not get a single MGL the entire game. Not a one. And don't even get me started on the SGL's

[ducki]

1400 BC - Two Dromons set sail with a settler and warrior in each. One to the South, one to the West.

1350 BC Maya complete Pyramids. French nab Colossus. Argh! Switch Caesarea from GLighthouse to GLibrary - should probably just take a shield loss and switch to units/improvements.

1075 BC - Island colonisation going well and uncontested. I just saw my first AI Curragh(Japan).

1050 BC - Naissus founded beyond the Island west of Byzantium, next to two cows.

1025 BC - GAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRRGHHHHHHHhhshahhah..... *whimper
Ducth complete Great Lighthouse.

950 BC - I'm number two on the list of greats behind England, I think. (Oddly, I am now well ahead of England. I wonder what happened to them...)

800 BC - Pop hut on island NW of Byzantium and get ... Construction! Whoo! With Philo optional, that means When I finish Currency in 9, I might skip on into the Middle Ages and use Fuedalism until Democracy. Since I plan on swallowing Japan, Sumeria, and Hittite, I'll need the troop support. The downside is the corruption. Speaking of which, I really should start thinking about FP placement. Hmmm...

750 BC - Contact Maya North of Sumeria.
Maya give me Currency and 5 gold for Writing.
Then they give me 240 gold for Horseback Riding. (I was very surprised throughout Ancient tech trading just now much the AI paid for HBR.)

710 BC - Currency and CoL to Russia for Monarchy.
Decide to waste 17 shields to take Hanging Gardens in 1 turn. Gotta get cranking on units and libraries, etc. Will probably Switch other wonder city to Great Wall and finish in 2. That's a total of 6 culture per turn and two Tourist Attractions - plus, when I established an embassy, I saw that Cathy was far ahead of me on the Library. Might as well nab this now and get on with what I should have been doing all along.

690 BC - Meet France and get another 100gold for Horseback Riding.

650 BC - Complete a settler, have GWall and HGardens. Revolt.
630 BC - Contact Netherlands - is that everyone now? No, I think I'm missing Lizzie. One problem with Philo costing so much - Now you can't even get Philo for Monarchy.

530 BC - FInally! Monarchy! Look out neighbors, I'm coming for ya!
470 BC - Trade Monotheism to Russia for Feudalism. Japan is woefully behind. Odds of smashing them at Chivalry look good.

pre150 BC - Lost yet another Dromon to the seas. I'm down to one now, and if I want to attack Japan any time soon, I can't be losing any more. Arg.

150 BC - Chivalry - Switch long lost prebuild to Templar. (Stupid Wonder addiction.)Get ready to roll over japan.

50 BC - Demand Japan get that Curragh out of my land or declare war - they declare. Dummies. Deliver 6 Med. Inf. and 4 Knights to Ivory town of Osaka. Tokie knows noone but me for now, so I won't bother with allies just yet - actually, I probably can't, can I?
He has what seems like an insane number of archers and spears. I should have waited for more knights.
Also, that stupid curragh attacked, so now I'm in a GA only slightly earlier than desired and stuck building units. At least it's not Despotic.

30 AD - Completed the Knights Templar. War is going "ok". Only taken one city, but Japan had an insane number of Archers and Spearmen. Luckily for me, my "galleys" can bombard. I've been destroying irrigation, plinking down spearmen, etc. I still only have a handful of troops in Japan, but more are coming every turn.

Note: It took about 5 or 6 turns to fend off the horde-o-archersandspears. If I hadn't had 6 or 7 Dromons constantly bombarding their troops and forcing retreats(and I used 1, later 2, to work around the coast bombarding roads and irrigation), I'd have been toast. They had that many troops.

210 AD - Move MGL Justinian to Iconium, the site of the former Japanese capitol(abandoned and resettled) to rush the FP next turn, after a rushed library completes. Had I known I'd get a Leader I could have saved a lot of money here and in Osaka. /sigh

230 AD - Rush FP. I'm so nervous. I do have 4 or 5 other elites to finish of the last two towns, so maybe I'll get another MGL...

IBT - Bastard Dutch demand 49 gold. I'm in no position to wage even a naval war. Grr. You will feel my wrath, prissy-boy. Just not right now.

260 AD - MM about 8 towns to Scientists to get Printing Press in 1 instead of 2. I dread going back and fixing all that, but maybe it'll be worth it.
Oops, I need Education and Banking for Democracy. Argh. On the upside, I trade Chivalry to France for Communication with the English and 1 gold.

Hey, I can sell Philo to England for 20 of her 23 gold! Yippee! After that, I'll wait for her to make some more money and sell her Construction or Republic.


What's odd about this game? Erm, uh, the very broad range of advancement, or rather, the lack thereof, of the various civs. I just finished Printing Press, noone has any techs to trade me, and I just sold Philosophy to England, who is in contact with France, who is only behind by Theology, Invention, and Printing Press.

It was nice to see AI Curraghs, but they seemed to wait a long time. Only Sumeria of my nearby neighbors seems interested in colonization. It was funny to lose my explorer Dromons and Curraghs after finding everyone but England and then giving up so I could fight a war that lasted until I was able to just trade for contact. I haven't explored as well as normal, though I'm sure far better than the AI.

Oh, and I got an MGL and I actually have an FP. Schweet!

[Catt]

Stock rules. Demi-god.

From AAR 1, I researched Pottery, then Writing at maximum research. After the discovery of Writing, I had to decide on the next tech -- it was either going to be Map Making or Philosophy. I decided to go after Map Making because: (1) I didn't have a sense of where other civs might be in the research path (not many wonder pop-ups) and didn't want to race for Philosophy and come up empty; (2) there were large swaths of unsettled land within reach and I needed transport capable naval units; (3) my initial curragh exploring indicated that I could use 4-move galleys to much better effect than 3-move curraghs; and, finally, (4) I habored wild hopes of securing the Great Lighthouse which would enable early trade over sea squares (Caesarea in the far NW was using a granary as a pre-build for the GL).

By 1475 bc I had discovered Japan, Sumeria, Hittites, and three uninhabited islands. After using the "no military units = no barbs" trick on the initial goody hut, I decided to use the "no barbs if a city within 1 tile" trick for the second goody hut (screenshot below).

I still hadn't made any tech trades. In my experience, in an archipelago or quasi-archipelago, it is well worth your while to beeline towards expensive techs and allow the AI civs to wallow in limited space while they research a bunch of lower level techs. I was researching MM and from there would look furtherinto the tech tree but didn't have ceremonial burial, the wheel, masonry, etc.

Catt

[Catt]

In 1275 bc my foolish fantasies of securing the GL were dashed when I learned that the Dutch had succeeded in building that wonder. I was still 3 turns from Map Making.

In 1175 bc separate curraghs discovered both the Dutch and the English. The English didn't have Writing, but did have all of my missing 1st-level techs as well as Iron Working (and who knows how many additional 2nd- or even 3rd-level techs since I lacked so many pre-requisities). The Dutch on the other hand had IW and both Philosophy and Code of Laws

By 1125 bc another curragh discovered both the Egyptians and the Russians. The Egyptians were horribly backward but the Russians had a slight tech lead over me -- I concluded that the two civs had been at war for some time and the Egyptians were suffering. I decided to launch the massive trading round, beginning with Alphabet and then Writing to Egypt (since Russia already had them both) for all the first and second level techs I could get. I proceeded to the poor backwards Japanese, trading Pottery and Masonry for the remaining early techs I lacked. A series of trades among the more advanced civs brought me into a leadership position -- the key being that England lacked Writing (and MM) but had discovered Construction; Construction and Polytheism brought Phil and CoL from the Dutch; at the end of trading I was one turn from Literature, and owned all known techs -- every other civ lacked one or more required techs except the Dutch.

I decided to research Currency instead of Republic or Monarchy -- with the number of workers I'd need to clear neighboring islands and / or the number of units I'd want to take Japan, I wasn't rushing towards Republic. In 850 bc I found the French and they miracuously had already discovered Currency but not Construction, Map Making, Polytheism, etc. -- I traded for Currency and entered the Middle Ages getting Monotheism as my free tech. I haven't yet traded Map Makinf to anyone (hoping to slow, if only marginally, any AI settler parties). The Dutch do not yet have a gov tech and lack currency. Republic is ~30 turns away.

Here's a screenshot of the current empire. Because I've been running max research and intend to continue to do so, I've converted most builds to libraries. Although I have the ability to build cathedrals, I haven't yet built a temple. I need to take out the barb camp in the north, but don't have the strength to do so yet --the wimpy C3C barbs never left their camp, and that camp has something like 15 horsemen / warriors even before the end-of-age uprising. I just hooked up iron to build / upgrade a few swords to take out the barbs and in the meantime have built a defenisve wall for my rexing peace.

Catt

[Catt]

Two thoughts on my approach and C3C features to date:

I decided to leave the Japanese alone for the near term. I figure they'll be so backwards that I can take them at any time, and I'd prefer to concentrate on rexing now to secure a big chunk of the island to my north west. With sufficient dromons / curraghs, no one will contact the Japanese for a long time so they'll always be backwards. Ironically, the access to Ivory and the SoZ may be a severe hindrance to Japan (they don't yet have Mathematicsso it's only my speculation) -- they'll be so backwards that the free ACs may bankrupt them. I've decided to take the Japanese island when it suits me, but plan an FP on the NW island after hordes and hordes of workers clear jungles and marshes.

The power of seafaring (at least for exploration and contacts) in the initial C3C release is absurd. This map is certainly favorable since one must risk sinking on only a few occassions in order to secure worldwide contacts -- but I didn't lose a curragh to sinking (though several to barbs) before contacting all civs. I had a ridiculous string of luck and traversed a huge ocean -- the extra move combined with the reduced sinking chance -- makes it too likely to succeed in less challenging circumstances. Ironically, my long ocean passage didn't help in any way -- other curraghs had already contacted the long-lost continents when the "lost ship" made it safely to port. So though the "vapor trail" below looks crazy, it wasn't a benefit and ended up being no more than an oddity in this game.

I personally don't like restricting sea / ocean access to certain units. But the seafaring's reduced sinking chances needs to be removed, IMHO, and probably the extra movement point as well. Extra city tile commerce and cheap improvements (and perhaps also naval units?) might make a more interesting and less unbalanced trait.

Catt

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Catt
...I decided to use the "no barbs if a city within 1 tile" trick for the second goody hut (screenshot below).

Are you certain this always works?

[notyoueither]

I don't see 9 civs in contact, do you have 9 other civs, Catt? [Damn, I was looking at 1100BC map, not 850.]

btw, Your good luck was my bad. I lost the little boat headed for the English. From that mini map, I would say you have been phenomenally lucky to have all contacts by that point. Average would be somewhat less or longer, no?

[Catt]

Originally posted by notyoueither
btw, Your good luck was my bad. I lost the little boat headed for the English. From that mini map, I would say you have been phenomenally lucky to have all contacts by that point. Average would be somewhat less or longer, no?

I think the average would be to lose a few more curraghs than I did. But I don't consider my luck exceptional by any means -- sure, the ridiculous trip west over 6 or 7 turns was very lucky, but by the time it made landfall safely, curraghs that headed east from the homeland had already reached the landing point.

If I had been unlucky and lost my "north to (it turns out) England)" curragh, I would have found it pretty soon thereafter via Sumeria or the Dutch. I was not building any land units and was instead building curraghs and workers. And I was starting to stream curraghs west thinking that there must be something out there to the west of the jungle islands, too. Less luck to my west might have fouled some trades by throwing off the timing of those trades, but fact of the matter is that on an isolation map (such as this) the AI civs will stagnate and very profitable trades will be available "late" in the early game, IMHO.

The fact that this map emphasized, for me, and only in the early game thus far, is that 25% sinking chance is too much -- every single civ is within a "one sinking chance" trip and it's just a matter of poking ships out into sea and looking for possible routes and then taking the risk -- at 25% chance of sinking, even two turns in dangerous water means a better than average chance of survival. That's too much.

Catt

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae

Are you certain this always works?

I would say "Yes!" but your question makes me think you have evidence otherwise. In the original "here are the goody hut rules" post by Mike B. from Firaxis, he stated that barbs would not come from a hut within one tile of a city. When you found a city next to a goody hut, you get the chance to name the city before the goody hut is popped -- note in my screenshot that Smyrna "exists" in that I was prompted for its name, its cultural border is expanding, and the settler info in the unit box already identifies the "settler" as "Smyrna."

In other words, I may be wrong, but I've relied on an old Mike B. post many times and never suffered for it (though in this game I suffered in the sense that I had to send a pair of workers in to drain the marsh before I could build a city).

Catt

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by ZargonX


Since it's been brought up, I'll just complain now I've finished the course, and in my countless elite victories, I did not get a single MGL the entire game. Not a one. And don't even get me started on the SGL's

Maybe that's because your spent all your time playing, and not taking many notes