AU501 - DAR2: First Dromon

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Arrian
That's just EVIL. I've seen that volcano erupt repeatedly, more than the one on the home island.

I doubt it makes you feel any better, but I lost my entire first invasion force to the Japanese crappy unit horde (and I'm only on Emperor, and I built Zeus since I was able to trade them horses for ivory). 3 pikes, 1 AC, 6 med inf. Crushed by horse/archer attack. I, however, landed on flat ground (idiot!), thinking my pikemen SO superior. Tell that to the 1 horse + 3 archers that killed them.

-Arrian

Though my Japanese invasion is not until the 4th DAR (yet to be posted), I was simply amazed at the amount of units the Japanese came at me with. It was absurd. They had like 15-20 archers and that many spearmen (without counting the city defenders). I did manage to land a absurd amount of pikes myself but still, I couldn't figure why such a crappy country could build so many.

So I thought:

1) they're militaristic. Obviosuly it's a priority

2) they were so behind in techs it's now obvious they had absolutley nothing else to build, so they started making archer/spear pairs.

3) Lotsa free units on demigod


My strategy against Japan ended up trying to fool their mega-spear stack into moving in directions different to where I was to strike. If that mega-stack had reached a city, I would have never been able to take it. (they did, however, manage probably the finest demolition job of any Civ war I've ever fought against the AI. )

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Master Zen
I was simply amazed at the amount of units the Japanese came at me with. It was absurd. They had like 15-20 archers and that many spearmen (without counting the city defenders).

I think this goes to show how many units the AI loses fruitlessly in wars against itself (that is, two AI civs fighting one another) in a Continents or Pangea game. With no one to fight, and certainly no Barbs, Japan never lost a unit. Kind of brings into focus the AI's production advantage at the higher levels.


Dominae

[Arrian]

I am playing an Emperor game I started the other day (my gf wanted me to show her the Conquests changes, but starting with a brand new game), and I have been in a position to watch several major AI empires duke it out throughout the late medieval and early industrial age. I've been a part of most of those wars, and have been able to do pretty well, but the sheer number of units, and the manner in which they are tossed away is sorta scary.

-Arrian

[MrWhereItsAt]

My Curragh leaps to another island to the west after only partially circumnavigating the one it was on. I figure that the further I go the earlier the better, and I can always fill in the blanks later when I get MM. Finally that nigh-indestructible Barba goes down, but not without damaging my last warrior down to 1hp. A Chariot arrives but cannot penetrate the marsh. I HAVE been away from this game for a while... My first set of play over, I retire to consider my tattics for tomorrow.

Back in the seat at 2070BC. Nothing happens for a few turns. I have 3 cities, of which two are building workers and the third settlers. I guess I should make the most of what little I have until MM. The Curragh exploring has uncovered an impenetrable (to my Chariot, at least) jungle along a huge section of coastline. Boring. I'm not doing a great job of micromanagement - even less well than normal - last settler I built was the exact turn Constantinople grew to pop 3, but I wasted 2 shields and 2 food in that turn. My Barb hunting Warrior has a little more luck, taking out the second to last one in the marsh. Of course he gets attacked and killed by this last Barb this turn, 1830BC.

City 4, Nicaea, is founded on the south coast in 1790BC.

FINALLY, in 1750 BC, I research Writing. I immediately found an Embassy with the Japanese - they are privileged with a river start, but their land isn;t that awesome, and they are going to waste some shields on the settler waiting for their city to grow to size 3. It is a cold comfort, as they have several warriors and a spear in the city - I need Horseback Riding or SOME offensive power. I swap Writing for their Warrior Code, CB and all 14 of their gold. Alas, they are still up Mysticism and HBR on me, at the least Selfish bastards refuse my 219 gold for EITHER of them. At least they have no Horses in their capital. I set Pottery as my next goal - 5 turns with max science! The next turn the Dutch build the Colossus.

The jungle island circumnavigated, my Curragh heads for Japan again for a closer look. This is not my game - the last barbr pops up and takes out a worker sent to clear the marshes for another city. Am contemplating throwing in the towel by this point - when do I post this? First Dromon! That's so far away! It's 1600BC, and with Pottery under my belt I start on Iron Working. A new Curragh heads towards a suspected coastal bridge between my landmass and a northern one.

Just as my original Curragh (now named the Endeavour) gets to Japan, a Japanese city is founded - great, so I have to end my turn in their territory and piss them off again! In 1525BC the Japanese start the Oracle - build it boys, it will just prevent you from preparing against my troops, which are only around a million years awayt from readiness! I have an Archer now, and a Barracks is being readied in Nicaea. Granary is finally done in Constantinople in 1500BC (my first building!) and all is in readiness for 5-7 turn settlers.

1475AD: YES! The coast extension leads to another island alright, and there is a pale blue border there! I'm no longer stuck with just Japan. I contact... Sumeria I have Writing and The Wheel they don't. Warily I trade the Wheel for Mysticism and 10 gold in the hope Writing can be traded for Polytheism or something. YES! Writing and 37 gold goes to them for Polytheism, which then goes to Japan for HBR. Now I have everything Japan has, and Pottery. Before trading HBR to Sumeria for Masonry, I establish an embassy - no Horses! I give them HBR for Masonry and 25 gold. Now I have that good ole' key attacking advance of Horseback Riding and two neighbours with no Horses. I think I am getting a hint here....

A Barb Galley from a potent looking camp N of Sumeria impales itself on my Curragh - nasty! I also notice Sumeria has a thir lux - Gems. The rest of Japan is charted by 1375BC - nothing really impressive.

Iron Working is acquired in 1350BC, and I switch to MM just so I can finish the DAR. 'Sides, I may have enough offense by then (19 turns) to make a dent in Japan, which is the closest target. I neglected Constantinople, which is now in disorder. Damn. The Hittites just got the Oracle, too. Oh BTW Iron is just north of Adrianople Japan has none that I can see, and Sumeria has one unconnected near Ur. Both Japan and Sumeria start the Temple of Artemis.

What's this? Upon exploring Japan the Endeavour is charting the coast of my home island and finds another island perhaps out of easy reach to the East, with another culture border. Meanwhile another Barb Galley is chasing the other Curragh around Sumeria.

Typical, the Endeavour sinks in the sea just before getting to the new land. I am building another in anticipation of this however.

City 5, Varna, is founded on the NE tip of my land in 1200BC. There's really just the marshlands now.
The last Barb desperately attacks my Horsemen that is hunting him, and finally, after almost 1400 years, they are all gone. The remaining Curragh is still running away from the Barb Galley, and I soon discover the Eastern island I lost the Endeavour trying to reach was just an extension of Sumer's lands, and the culture radius was just them. Next time I'm playing with my contact lenses IN.

The Barb catches my Curragh and kills it just as I spot some sea across the horizon to the West of Sumeria. When will this luck change? At least Iron is hooked up (1125BC) and Swordman production begins. I realise now I should have done the Warrior upgrade thing, with 131 gold that's at least a couple more right away. I realist also I am just not very into this game. All my workers are now headed to the Marsh to drain it.

The Mayans build the Pyramids in 1075BC. I am SO better off with a Continent start... In 1050BC Herodotus ranks me as 8th in Power terms. The Sumerians are 7th, and the Japanese don't even register. Glad they are the first targets then.

By 1000BC I have 1 Sword, 5 Horse and an Archer waiting to be ferried across. If I have timed it right I will get two Dromon the turn of MM. Finally city 6, Smyma, is founded in 925 BC. There is no more room. I need to conquer.

I am now devious and arrange for civil disorder in Constantinople, which I think should allow me to switch to a Galley in Nicaea the turn it is built, and the turn of MM. When I get MM I switch to Maths, and cleverly use the F1 advisor to switch Nicaea over, thinking I don;t even need to miss the turn in Constantinople. But I'm not clever, becasus as soon as I try to adjust the slider (AFTER fiddling with Nicaea), it exits first and Constant is in disorder. Oh well.

So anyway, here I am - first Dromon, with a second next turn, at 850BC, and an invasion force of 3 Swords, 6 Horses and 1 Archer waiting to attack Japan. I have a city size 4, 3x size 3s, a 2 and a size 1. There are 5 workers, mostly working the swamp in the North. My Demographics stats are pretty crap. Hopefully this will change when Japan and Sumer are under my belt. I have all first and second tier ancient techs but for Maths, and 2 3rd tier ones (Poly, MM).

So whaddaya think - should I give up, expecting my bad luck and generally sloppy play to continue?



[IMG]http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=14580_Map850BC.jpg[/URL]

[SirOsis]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
So whaddaya think - should I give up, expecting my bad luck and generally sloppy play to continue?

I say definately keep going.

I've also had some barbarian setbacks early on. Took out a worker and pillaged my capital. Finally kicked them off my island around 800bc. I was waiting to pop the huts to see if I could get some 2nd tier techs (I did - Horseback Riding) but the barbarians from the other hut had me scrambling to defend my cities. My big push in the beginning was for curraghs. I built 3 before anything else which left me a little exposed when the barbs appeared.

[ducki]

MWIA - Definitely keep going - when I hit the clearing-the-swamps stage, I started feeling bogged down(haha) as well.
I was also rather uncomfortable with the 'pelago map for quite some time, but I learned so much by sticking it out(and reading the other DARs) that I'm really glad I hung in there.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Aeson
[comic book guy]Worst invasion ever![/comic book guy]

Once again, Aeson at the most extreme!!

Ouch ouch ouch, sorry, man, that hurts.

I am reminded of Eddie Izzard talking about Pol Pot under house arrest: "Just don't go in that house!"

[Theseus]

Build build build, explore explore explore.

I get Warrior Code from the hut, and moon Toku across the Mt. Fiery Doom Channel (we really need the ability to assign place names).

I finished Writing in 1790 BC, and through trading achieved tech parity with Japan, with both of us ahead of Sumeria and the Hittites by Mysticism. I start to notice that nobody but me has any strategic resources... hmm, very interesting!

As for everyone who researched Writing quickly, this was a critical turning point in the game. It prolly took me 30-40 minutes to decide my research path (I love the AU Mod, btw, as it helped make such decisions much more strategicaally interesting ). Philosophy at 90-100%, depending on need for the luxury slider.

Friggin' French built the Colossus in 1275 BC... great, just what I need.

I completed Philosophy in 1175 BC, generating an SGL!! Trade around for Iron Working, Code of Laws, Map Making, and Polytheism, and take Monarchy as my free tech. Yes, some might call it an exploit, but not me, it's knowing how to play the game optimally.

I have a Harbor completing in Nicaea next turn, so I then use the SGL to rush the Great Lighthouse. YAY!! The Maya had snagged the Pyramids, and otherwise the first big GW rush was beginning.

Given that I alone have Monarchy, I decide to hold off on a revolution and build the Hanging Gardens, especially given the single luxury at home.

So, Horses and Iron... don't know why, but I committed myself to a Horse strategy at this point rather than slowmovers. Prolly a mistake, as it later extended the time required to take down Japan.

I recall my Curraughs back for upgrade, and see my first Dromon in 1025 BC, at which time:
12 towns with 29 pop
8 Workers
13 Warriors
1 Chariot
2 Dromon

And, hmm, nobody shows resources, Horses at least. Interesting.

[conmcb25]

A couple of Key Milestones:

1725 Masonry from Sumerians for 4 GPT and 42 gold
(This later proved to be a mistake]

1275 japanese declare war when I wont give up a free tech

1025 Philo (after a slow start because of the previous trade) results in NO FREE TECH, I shoulkd have waited on the trade above. ah well.

1025 Also traded Philo and got wheel and ten gold from the Hittites

670 researched map making

450BC got my first Dromon but the picture is from 370BC because I got to caugth up in the japan war

Right now Im going to use my Dromons, Swordsman and Spearman to kick some Japanese but, and eventually get an FP on the Japanese Island, it would be very nice if I got a GL out of this war............

[Theseus]

ACK!!!

There's a friggin' Sumerian city on the homeland!!

[Damn, that's an aggressive move by an AI civ.]

[SirOsis]

Funny thing is the Sumerians founded the same city in the same place in conmcb25's game as in mine. They didn't last long.

[DrSpike]

Link to DAR1:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=2754153#post2754153

First contact

We met the Japanese, Hittites and Sumerians very soon, and traded for all the techs in the first column initially. I was wary of trading writing too early even on these favourable settings.

Back to settling

In 1650 Smyrna founded next to the luxury, now that there were enough workers to keep everything ticking. A harbour was started here. In 1600 we discovered Code of Laws and chose Philosophy. It would only take 7 turns.

We also founded Heraclea just above the capital which was designated the role of secondary worker pusher, and one that would outlast the capital. It started on a granary. An escorted team were clearing some marsh to found there soon, but were delayed a little by barbs. Trebizond was founded there in 1475.

More Contacts

Meeting the Russians and Egyptians had lead to another skim around the AIs, and we got Mysticism and Iron Working. Yea, we have iron.

Republic

We got Republic in 1425, and traded for Map Making and Mathematics. We gifted all prerequisities and Republic to all. We held on to Map Making. We started Currency. Gotta be worth a screenie:

[DrSpike]

Chalcedon in the North was founded in 1275, and a second long term worker pusher Sardica just South of the capital in 1225. The barbs had refused to fight for many turns, but finally they sallied forth in 1150, the turn before the first dromon was produced.

Smyrna in the South ended up doing Harbour/Dromon. Trebizond also switched to Dromon soon. But the first came from Nicaea in the East, who was taking a break from Swordsman to ensure there were enough Dromon for the coming invasion.

Having weighed the options I decided Sumeria was the best initial target. Since bumping wasn't an option on this map I wanted to take the centre city on their landmass as soon as possible.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by SirOsis
Funny thing is the Sumerians founded the same city in the same place in conmcb25's game as in mine. They didn't last long.

I need to settle a scotre with the Hittites, ESPECIALYY since they just got Knights Templar.

Then its the Sumerians, followed by a conquest of that whole Island and a palace jump or FP, I haven't decided yet

[Hermann the Lombard]

DAR 2 -- Stock Rules, Merely Monarch

2310 BC - 3rd Settler heading toward Game
2070 - Adrianople builds first curragh, RS Primus, starts a second. Caesarae warrior, starts another.
2030 - First Contact. Japan has Wheel, WC, CB, IW. We have Alpha & Pots. Trade Alph & Pot for Iron+10gp. (Could have had Wheel+10gp or WC+CB+10gp.) [BTW, I can hardly believe some of the gpt deals I've seen in the DARs. *MY* alien civs are always poor, probably because they don't have the bonuses the AI gets at higher levels.]
1990 - Nicea founded next to the two game (Con 2-3-3).
1950 - 4th Settler
1910 - Varna founded on east coast tobacco (Con 9-9-6). [So, *is* do I waste the bonus when I build on the tobacco? I know that's true of building on a Cow (poor Bossie), so I assume that's true here.] Probably should have built here before game, as only 1 move from Con instead of 3. Adrianople riots due to the continuing destruction of tobacco; I should just leave the lux slider at 20% instead of trying to milk pennies (tech 10%, writing in 15).
1870 - Caes Warrior; I need troops to guard the worker building a road to the Iron. Also, there are now lots of barbs in the southeast (4 in sight, 1 in woods admiring Constantinople, 2 on the move SE of the iron). West Island (Hermann's Hideaway) appears to be uninhabited, but has food and gold...and of course *another* volcano. I seem to have screwed up the pump. Settler in 5. Perhaps I should have spit out a warrior. Will need higher lux for imminent Pop 6.
1830 - 2nd Curragh (RS Secundus), heading north then east. RS Primus sights land farther west. I need more workers. Lux to 30 for Pop 6. Will need higher for Adrian Pop 4 unless I send an MP. Oh...or put MP in Con right now. Too late, the unit moved.
1790 - Mount West erupts. Con->6, settler in 1.
1750 - 5th Settler, send toward incense. Must deal with barb menacing Varna (which is 1 turn short of building a warrior)...but the barb left the cozy forest for open grassland. Warrior to Vet. RS Secundus finds 2 more barbs in camp at Land's End. Mass warriors near Varna.
1725 - Varna builds Warrior, starts Curragh. Adrian builds Warrior as MP, starts Worker. RS Secundus sights Sumer. RS Primus cruises jungle coast. 4 Warriors confront 2 Barbs on mountain, wishing the volcano had dealt with them first. [Sorry, Aeson!] Wait for Vet to heal. Ugh...Sumer's techs are Japan's techs, except Iron and Wheel. Japan wants 5gpt + 262 gp for Wheel; too much! Sumer: Iron + 1gpt for WC & CB.
1700 - Nicea Spear, starts Archer. Send Spear & Warrior toward barb camp.
1675 - Adrian Worker, now Pop 3, start curragh. Smyrna built on the coast west of the incense. Warrior barely takes the SE barb camp, the spear heads back to garrison. RS Primus rounds the North Cape; Secundus is tempted by shelf north of Sumer.
1650 - 6th Settler. RS Secundus sinks a barb galley, is now a damaged Vet. Start roads to Iron and Gold. Settler heads toward Iron. Battle of Varna: both barbs KIA, no losses, not yet Heroic Epic material! Caesarae builds RS Tertius, sent south via the Japanese coast, starts Archer.
1600 - RS Secundus sinks attacking barb off East North Cape, but 50% damaged; moves back west toward the Tempting Shelf. Start road on Incense now that Smyrna is connected.
1575 - Adrianople builds Curragh, starts Colossus with no expectation of getting it.
1550 - Con 7th Settler, starts Worker. RS Quadrus launched. Incense brought in.
1525 - Varna launches RS Quintus. RS Secundus succumbs to tempation and sinks in sight of land north of Sumer. Seafaring? What seafaring?
1500 - RS Tertius lost SE of Smyrna. Seafaring? What seafaring? RS Quintus sights Hittites. Murilus trades Wheel for CB+90gp. We trade Wheel to Gilgamesh for Mysticism. Japan has matched techs, but we gave 1 gpt for good will.
1475 - WRITING! Start embassies in Ur (Oracle in 87), Kyoto (Oracle in 90), and Hattusas (nothing but a Palace). Const pumping a few workers. Caes finishes Archer, starts Temple. Iron soon (3t). Trebizond built on Gold Hill, starts Curragh.
1450 - Hmm...I have Iron but no horses...except those in sight on the coast outside the Hittite border. Nicea builds Barracks, starts Archer as placeholder for Sword.
1425 - RS Primus makes landfall after SIX turns in open ocean. Seafaring? What seafaring? Con builds Worker and starts Temple. Varna builds a worker, tentatively starts another Curragh. Mount West erupts again. We have Iron! All cities are linked by roads.
1400 - Start Iron mine. Start chopping to fuel Colossus. Two Gallic Galleys are following RS Quintus.
1350 - Scouting warrior finds barbs still camped on Land's End, sees 3 horse and 2 warrior, flees.
1325 - Dutch complete Colossus (raths), switch to Oracle as a placeholder (I hope), chopped shields went to Con anyway. Heraclea builds Worker, starts Temple. Hittites start Artemis.
1300 - RS Quadrus makes landfall on island SW of Japan. RS Primus is now one island still farther west.
1250 - RS Primus sinks two Hun galleys, now Vet at 50%. Much MM.
1225 - Nicea Vet Sword, starts Sword.
1200 - Varna Curragh, starts Curragh.
1175 - Con Temple, starts Worker (1 turn). Smyrna Barracks, starts Sword. Two workers start mine on hill 2 north of Con (for Adrianople).
1125 - Con Worker, start Worker? First Wonder Cascade: Maya complete Pyramids, French complete Oracle. Nuts. Adrianople can switch to Temple wasting 58 shields. Start 2nd hill mine near Trebizond.
1100 - Adrianople completes the Gilded Temple (supervised by the Gelded Architect), starts Barracks, now maxed at Size 6. Trebizond launches RS Septus, starts Temple. RS Sextus follows RS Secundus to a watery grave NW of Sumer. [Got Philo in there somewhere; took Map Making.]
1075 - RS Primus barely sinks Vandal galley. Con produces one last worker, starts Barracks. RS Primus contacts Egypt (and also sights a green-brown border). Trade Alpha+160gp for Masonry. Sumer: trade Masonry+80gp for Polytheism. RS Primus contacts Russia, completing the Daily Double! Trade Poly(theism, sorry Apolyton) for HBR+170gp. Egypt offers 110gp for HBR, but I take 160gp for Writing. Optimistically switch Adrianople from Barracks (8t) to Artemis (55t); I guess I like wasting shields and gelding architects.
1050 - Nicea builds Sword, starts Sword. Switched Smyrna to Horsemen. Yes, we DO have horses now that we learned what those spindly-legged things are that were eating our crops. Varna launches RS Octus and stubbornly starts another Curragh. RS Quadrus founders far to the SW. Seafaring? What seafaring? RS Septus sinks NW of Hermann's Hideaway. Seafaring? What seafaring? First hill mine opens.
1000 - RS Octus sinks a Surian off Sumer...tempted to return to port for upgrade to Dromon. "Yes, DO" orders Theodora. Switch Adrianople from Artemis to Great Lighthouse (47t to 27t). Switch construction to Dromons and Harbors.
975 - Caeserae finishes Harbor, starts Dromon. RS Primus reaches northern tip of Egypt, east of the Hittites. Is Captain Magellanus going to make it all the way around? [Pity C3C doesn't have the Heroic Feats that CTP2 has, like circumnavigation.] RS Octus turns around when told the ship can't be upgraded without a Harbor.
925 - Smyrna has trained our first Horsemen. RS Primus sights Dye next to Thebes. Con finishes Barracks, starts Sword.
900 - Nicea Sword
875 - RS Quintus contacts the Dutch! William won't yield Code of Laws. Send unorganized army off to Land's End for--er--"training." 3 Sword, 1 Horse, all Vets.
850 - RS Octus braves the wreck-strewn Secundusbane Crossing and contacts the Maya! Trade Philo for Math+230gp. Dutch take Math+CD for Code of Laws. Egypt pays 50gp for Horse, and Hittites pay 40gp. Caeserae completes Dromon (RS Theodora), and starts another!

So now what? Hittites or Japan? Obviously Japan is the easier target, but worth less too. To be continued in DAR3.