AU mod: The Jaguar Warrior

[Harovan]

920AD. I finished the Aztecs off. Late, because I needed them as research partners until I made other contacts.

That one Jaguar Warrior I killed was the only one the Aztecs had in the entire game. I'm pretty sure, they never got a GA. They built two wonders (Oracle and Artemis), but that didn't help them either. They're not even religious anymore.

They did not build their UU after their expansion phase. Not a single one, despite the fact they had neither iron nor horses (it's Conquests after all). They built loads of Archers (which I killed later as Longbowmen), but not a single Jag.

Overall it was a pity to see the Aztecs that teethless. I think the JW should have its cost lowered to 10 and get in the Warrior upgrade path again. This is largely a single player mod, so I don't see any obstacle for that change.

[ducki]

In PTW the Aztecs started with a bunch of Jaguar Warriors

I was just going to suggest changing their starting units from warriors to jaggies.

Any support there?

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by ducki

I was just going to suggest changing their starting units from warriors to jaggies.

Any support there?

Support from me

[alexman]

Aztecs currently get Archers as offensive and Warriors as defensive starting units. I'm not sure how to make it so they start with Jaguar Warriors without altering upgrade paths, are you?

Perhaps the Jag should replace the Archer for the Aztecs? They both require Warrior Code in C3C.

[ducki]

Yes, I should have said let the Aztec have Jaggies as their offensive starter unit.

IMO, the Jaggie is far more valuable on the vast majority of maps for the Aztecs than Archers - as starting units.

Better in the same way that some here would much rather have a military comprised of Horsemen at 2-1-2 than Swordsmen at 3-2-1.

So I propose we replace the Aztec AIs starting Offensive units with Jaguar Warriors.

[alexman]

Never mind about the Archer replacement. That would limit choices for the human player, as Archers are often better for combat, while the 15-shield Jaguar is better for harassment.

By the way, this is a general problem with the AI. It seems that the AI does not value the movement factor highly enough when deciding which attacker to build. In this example it builds more Archers than Jags, but it also builds few horsemen compared to Swordsmen, for all civilizations, and too many Longbowmen when it can be building Knights.

[alexman]

Cross-posted: ducki, I know what you were proposing, I just don't know how to do it.

[ducki]

I know that I can give the AI a starting Army, so surely it's the same listbox, no? I'll look tonight.

Re: the crosspost, I figured you knew, but wanted to rephrase for anyone else that comes along, just to make it crystal clear. What can I say, I'm a programmer contractor.

[Krill]

well, why not give the JW the defense flag, so the AI picks them instead of normal warriors? (and make the JW upgrade to horseman. That would solve your problem, alex).

[ducki]

I think Jaggies should upgrade to swords, not horses.
Would the AI still explore and attack with Jaggies if they were flagged as defense?

[alexman]

Unlike offensive starting units, it seems that the defensive starting units are the units with the highest defensive strength (with a tie resolved in favor of the first unit in the editor). AI defensive flag does not matter. So the AI still starts with Archers and Warriors, even if Jaguar Warriors are marked as defensive...

[JimiD]

Whilst the next AU version is being considered, can I make a plea to get the jaguar looked at again:

As a SP I might play the Aztects 1/32, but I encounter them 1/4 (standard map etc), and I feel that the loss the of the jaguar from AI civs is too much to pay for balancing the Aztecs as a human civ, or to address MP concerns.

As an upgraded warrior, the jaguar is unique and powerful for early wars, but with early GA risks etc.

At present in C3C the jaguar is similar to the chariot and chasqui scout and the debate about tactics for the jag has echoed the dicussions on those units.

If the change made in C3C to the jaguar had been a AU proposal, would it have been accepted?

If not, can the change back to pre C3c be proposed not as a change from stock, and the presumption to do nothing, but a change back to stock and the presumption to do something?



This applies to SP only - MP I accept is different. Since there is discussion of a MP AU mod, and what differences from an SP version it would have, I would put this forward as an example.

[alexman]

The problem is that players can abuse the cheap Jaguar, even in SP. Ask Aeson.

There is no perfect solution, I agree, but since C3C and not PTW are the stock rules version of this mod, we need a good reason to make a change.

[pvzh]

Umm... Why not do something cute: make warriors upgrade to jags, so Aztecs will not have warriors period! To compensate for this, improve jags by adding +1 HP and/or defensive bombardment 1, 0-range, 1-RoF.

Price 15 shields is not that high penalty for swordsman upgrade, besides if you did not trigger you GA, you can build jag and upgrade it to swordsman without need to go into connect-disconnect iron.

Edit: I ran some calculations with CivIII Combat Calculator (v1.33)

Here are results: assuming that you want to rush spearmen defended town on flat terrain with regular fortified spearment

  
  



  

    

      
Experience
      
      
Result
      
      
Jag.
Warrior
      
      
Jag.
Warrior +1HP
      
      
Archer
      
    
    

      
Veteran
      
      
Win
      
      
19.5%
      
28%
      
      
50.85%
      
    
    

      
Loss
      
      
39.7%
      
37.8%
      
      
49.15%
      
    
    

      
Draw
      
      
40.8%
      
24.2%
      
      
N/A
      
    
    

      
Elite
      
      
Win
      
      
27.9%
      
36.6%
      
      
63.4%
      
    
    

      
Loss
      
      
33.15%
      
31.3%
      
      
36.6%
      
    
    

      
Draw
      
      
38.95%
      
32.1%
      
      
N/A
      
    
  

Obviously, with neither jags, your chances are fairly low to rush AI successfully on the Emperor and above, so I think it is safe to add both +1HP and defensive bombardment 1/0/1 (strength/range/RoF)

[joncnunn]

I was going to start a Jaguar Warrior thread when I noticed this one.

The AI in AU Mod 1.07 does not seem to build JWs at all even with no horses nor iron! I saw the Aztecs with Warriors, Archers, and Spear Men, but not a single JW!

Yet I think the cost of them is correct considering how good they are.

I propose in the interest of instructing the AI to build them that Warriors be simply removed from the list of units the Aztecs can build.

(Since the Aztecs start with Warrior Code, I think it's cleaner to simply remove it from the list of civs that can build warrior than to add warrior upgrade to Jaquar Warrior)

IMHO, this upholds the AU Mod principles of helping out the AI with minimum change. In fact this change is just back to what is was in Vanilla and PTW.