The Military Academy

[lockstep]

The problem

While C3C has changed the balance between 'builders/researchers' (who are more likely to get the new Scientific Great Leaders) and warmongers (who are more likely to get Military Great Leaders), in my opinion there is still a kind of 'design flaw':

• On the one hand, SGL's can rush Great Wonders and temporary boost your scientific research, but there are other strategies to achieve these ends (developing a high-shield city that is able to rapidly build wonders, building a bunch of libraries/universities).
• On the other hand, MGL's can rush Small Wonders and build armies, but for the latter ability there is no substitute strategy. (Yes, you can churn out a lot of units instead, but I assert that there is no subsitute for an army's attack/defense and movement bonuses.)

I still believe that getting a MGL in the early game (ancient or early middle ages) and using him to create an army should confer substantial bonuses (as it currently does in C3C), but having to wage war to be able to build armies even in the industrial or modern age just doesn't feel right to me.

Possible Solution

Change the Military Academy Small Wonder so that it does not require a victorious army. With this change, 'builders' are able to produce armies by researching (or trading for) Military Tradition. If a player - builder or warmonger - happens to get a Military Great Leader in the early game, the strategic question of what to do with this leader still is: Get an army (and the possibility to build the Heroic Epic) now and for free, or wait till the end of the middle ages and invest 800 shields (400 for the Military Academy and 400 for the actual army). Note that this is more than the shield costs of Great Wonders of this period. I am aware of the possible objection that my suggestion would still take away some important decisions, but in my opinion a player simply shouldn't be forced to wage war to gain access to a core game feature (armies).

The suggested change was part of former versions of the AU mod, and this was Theseus' comment on it (note that this was before C3C):

Originally posted by Theseus
Re Military Academy, I sorta like the idea of not requiring a victorius Army, as this lets late warmongers, of which there are many, still commence, say, a Tank period intercontinental invasion, with an Army of Infantry as part of the invasion force.

As an additional 'cosmetic' change the 'new' Military Academy could require five barracks (just like Wall Street requires five stock exchanges etc.). This feature wasn't implemented in the AU mod until now because of a PtW bug that didn't accept 'free' barracks (the ones provided by Sun Tzu's) as prerequisite for any other building or wonder. This bug has been fixed in C3C.

What do you think about a Military Academy that doesn't require a victorious army?

[Backpack]

I would WELCOME this mod. As a builder / Late warmonger, I can count on 1 hand the games where I have gained a MGL prior to Tanks. (2 of 3 times IIRC was a defensive MGL, and this is across C3, PTW, and C3C).

I have no problems with any other limitations ala 5 barracks or other suggestions. It shouldn't be easy, but it should be possible. Armies are just to powerful to ignore. I have already found myself being more aggressive in my gameplay just to get an Army earlier. I would rather it work in reverse so that I would get the ability to build Armies and this ability cause me to take a more aggressive stance.

Thanks for Listening

Kevin P.

[sabrewolf]

yeah, take out that requirement!

on tiny and small maps even a warmonger won't fight enough elite battles to guarantee a MGL.

lockstep: the 5 barracks requirement... that probably means that someone with sun tzu's won't be able to build the military academy, except a) cities on another continent or b) built >=5 barracks before sun tzu's and didn't sell it.

[lockstep]

I haven't tested it with barracks - Military Acadamey, but I know from reports from other forum members that building a Civil defense (which requires a barracks) in a city with 'free' (Sun Tzu) barracks a) wasn't possible in PtW b) is now possible in C3C.

I guess Firaxis/Breakaway had to correct that bug because otherwise the new Temple of Artemis wonders ('free' temples) would have really messed up building cathedrals.

EDIT: Nevertheless, the 'five barracks' requirement would have to be tested before implementing it in the AU mod.

[Kuciwalker]

I like this. In my own personal mod I have this option set.

Is there a way to set the SGL chance in the editor (I don't have C3C yet)?

[nbarclay]

I see no point in the "five barracks" requirement. Except in a OCC game or a game a player is losing horribly, it's almost impossible to envision a player wanting to build a Military Academy yet not having five barracks yet. Thus, I view the "five barracks" idea as clutter - an extra rule to read that means essentially nothing in practice.

Nathan

[ducki]

in my opinion a player simply shouldn't be forced to wage war to gain access to a core game feature (armies).

Especially in light of the boost to armies in C3C.
EDIT: Forgot to add that the reliance on the RNG to allow the building of an important military unit is - IMO - a bad design decision. Are there any other example of this in the game - rare RNG event required to build something?

I liked this in PtW and I'm sure to like it in C3C.

I am with Nathan, though - I don't think the barracks requirement is necessary.

[Tassadar500]

Maybe we should increase the number needed. Maybe 10-15?

[Dominae]

I dislike this whole idea.

Armies are strong enough that they should not be standard-fare. Playing a Builder game then conquering the world with Armies when come the right time seems wrong to me. Sounds like the Builders what some of the Warmonger goodies without doing some amount of work.

Looking at this another way, there does not seem to be a genuine problem here. Warmongers get rewarded for warmongering with the ability to build MGLs; Builders get rewarded for building with the chance to get SGLs. Seems fair to me.

Although I do not like the luck factor in SGL and MGL generation, I would be more unhappy if Armies were so freely accessible.


Dominae

[Kuciwalker]

Maybe we should increase the number needed. Maybe 10-15?

Why? That would only possibly have an effect on small and tiny maps. Otherwise (at least in my experience) you will have no trouble meeting a requirement for something as basic as barracks unless it's huge.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
Looking at this another way, there does not seem to be a genuine problem here. Warmongers get rewarded for warmongering with the ability to build MGLs; Builders get rewarded for building with the chance to get SGLs. Seems fair to me.

The difference is, the warmonger can still build every wonder that the builder can.
The builder is barred from building Armies because you have to have one to be able to build one.

Although I do not like the luck factor in SGL and MGL generation, I would be more unhappy if Armies were so freely accessible.

I forget what we did in PtW. Maybe double the shieldcost to build them?

The warmonger STILL has the advantage here - his armies likely take ZERO turns to build. A builder is probably spending about 30 turns(in a pretty good city) to build an empty army - tack on time to build units to fill them.
I hardly think this means we will see games where there are suddenly 50+ armies running around in a purely peaceful civ.


The issue I have with it, though, is this:
There is an entire unit that is unbuildable unless you already have one.

It's bad design, IMO.
Every other piece of knowledge in the game is tradeable, but this one thing requires first hand knowledge? And a lot of luck?

IIRC, Dom and I had to just agree to disagree last time on this one. I forget the final outcome in the PtW mod.

[ducki]

Sorry for the separate post, but I feel this is distinct enough from my other ramble.

I could be wrong, but I vaguely recall that the most convincing argument in favor of this change from PtW was that it helped the AI. Removing the need for convoluted pandering to the RNG that the players do on the meta-game level in order to generate leaders so they can build armies would help the AI and we will see the AI actually building armies.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ducki
The difference is, the warmonger can still build every wonder that the builder can.
The builder is barred from building Armies because you have to have one to be able to build one.

Yes, and the Warmonger needs to spend more Commerce on upgrades and less on research keep ahead to get a shot at those SGLs, not to mention more Shields on military units.

Warmongers should be rewarded for warmongering. Builders should be rewarded for building. A Builder should not be rewarded for turning into a Warmonger whenever he or she sees fit, with no consequence.

The warmonger STILL has the advantage here - his armies likely take ZERO turns to build. A builder is probably spending about 30 turns(in a pretty good city) to build an empty army - tack on time to build units to fill them.

Huh? The Warmonger will be building Armies in the Military Academy city too! Just because he or she is labeled a "Warmonger" does not mean his or her MGLs will come for free. What the Military Academy does is reward serious warmongering in the earlier stages of the game. Just building 10 Barracks does not seem like "serious warmongering" to me.

The issue I have with it, though, is this:
There is an entire unit that is unbuildable unless you already have one.

Kind of like the Heroic Epic? Should we make that available to everyone too? How about making Armies buildable right from the start, while we're at it (reducing their cost to a more "reasonable" level, of course)?

It's bad design, IMO.

IMO, it's rather good design. MGL generation is based on luck, but players can put the odds in their favor if they put enough effort into it, and the rewards are unique.

On the other hand, SGL generation is IMO bad design, because if you're researching techs first, you're usually winning, and the benefits just make you win more. While you can warmonger the whole game (perhaps getting MGLs out of it) and still not be in a clear lead, if you reach the point where the odds are in your favor to get SGLs, it's not like you need them. And the rewards are not unique, because as you point out both Warmongers and Builders can secure Wonders (and it's not like anyone ever uses the 25% research boost option!).

That was a big tangent, sorry.

We did not touch the Military Acadmey in the Play the World mod. I'm against changing it here, too.


Dominae

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
Kind of like the Heroic Epic? Should we make that available to everyone too? How about making Armies buildable right from the start, while we're at it (reducing their cost to a more "reasonable" level, of course)?

No, the HE is a building that requires a victorious unit that does not allow you to build that unit.

On the other hand, SGL generation is IMO bad design,

I agree SGL is bad design. Different issue.

We did not touch the Military Acadmey in the Play the World mod. I'm against changing it here, too.

I did a forum search.
We did allow this. Maybe it was pre-PtW. I remember it was controversial, maybe someone can remind us the eventual outcome.

[Dominae]

Just re-read my post: sorry for being a little flippant/sarcastic there, ducki.




Dominae