The Military Academy

[alexman]

Allowing the Palace to build Armies will have a considerable effect on gameplay.

In the early-game, we will be able to use Armies as prebuilds (they cost as much as Pyramids or the Great Library) without rushing to Masonry, and without having to worry too much about what happens if you lose the race (in the worst case you'll get an Army to dominate the early-game against the AI).

In the late-game, you will get Armies twice as fast as you do now, unless you completely remove the MA from the game. In that case I would argue that allowing the MA to spawn Armies is closer to stock rules than removing the Military Academy and allowing the Palace city to build Armies.

Armies are not used very effectively by the AI. When the AI has one or two Armies, most of the time they sit in their capital, half-filled with obsolete units. An occasional lost Wonder race will not cut it. We need a more steady stream of Armies to give the AI a chance.

[nbarclay]

I do not like the idea of having AIs generate early-game armies during peacetime, even by accident. It's too big a change from the game's design, under which early armies are supposed to be available only through fighting.

Specifically, there are two things that bother me about it. The first is that if AIs generated early-game armies only as a result of fighting, the armies would generally have to survive whatever war they are generated in before they could be turned against a human player who is not involved in that war. (Similarly, human armies sometimes die in the war they are generated in before being turned against another target.) In contrast, with armies generated in peacetime, a peaceful human player (whether a builder or a warmonger who hasn't started fighting yet) could end up as AI armies' first target.

And the second is that the risk of AIs' generating armies would have nothing to do with whether or not we humans attack them. Indeed, early warfare against an AI might actually reduce the risk of the AI's building armies. So the fundamental problem that humans can get armies from fighting while AIs can't would remain.

It would be very nice from a perspective of game balance if AIs used leaders for armies. But I think having AIs get armies without fighting would add a new balance issue on top of the existing one rather than genuinely solving the current problem.

Nathan

[alexman]

Originally posted by alexman
Yes/No: Make all the following changes to the Military Academy:

• Remove victorious Army requirement.
• Remove 'increased army value' flag.
• Remove the ability to build Armies for all civilizations.
• Add ability to spawn an Army every 25 turns.
• Reduce shield cost of Army to 1.

It's time to vote. AU mod panel, you have 48 hours.

My vote: Yes

[lockstep]

YES

[Stuie]

Yes.

[Nor Me]

Yes.

[ZargonX]

Abstain

[nbarclay]

Abstain. If it were relevant, I'd suggest separating out the "Remove 'increased army value' flag." part so I could vote yes to it and abstain on the rest, but there are already plenty of yes votes without needing mine.

The reason for my abstaining regarding everything but the "Remove 'increased army value' flag." part is that I have very mixed feelings. On one hand, I like the idea of making the army situatiion between humans and AIs a bit less unequal. On the other, there are a number of interesting strategic choices regarding when and where to build the Military Academy and regarding whether to build only armies in the Military Academy city or sometimes other things as well (such as city improvements) that I hate to see disappear. I've been tossing the issue around in my head off and on, but haven't been able to decide which aspect I consider more important.

Nathan

[Theseus]

I am... conflicted, as well. For me, it is more about how the absence of MGLs would COMPLETELY change my approach to the game, and resultant strategies and tactics. I think the solution up for vote is very creative and balanced, but...

Would anybody mind if we tabled this till the weekend? I'd like to reach out to some Firaxians, through various means, to get feedback on just this one aspect of whatever patches the future might hold.

[ducki]

how the absence of MGLs would COMPLETELY change my approach to the game, and resultant strategies and tactics

Hrm... that sounds.... big.

Would any of the votes (or especially the abstentions) change if the proposal were restructured to be a 3 parter?

1. Remove Victorious Army requirement
2. Remove Increased Army Value flag
3. Implement "free and automatic" Armies changes.

Just curious.

[nbarclay]

My interpretation was that "Remove the ability to build Armies for all civilizations." would affect only the military academy, not MGLs, because armies from MGLs are not "built" in the normal sense. If it would also affect the ability to get armies from MGLs, that changes the situation considerably.

[alexman]

Yes, your interpretation was correct. Nothing changes about leaders in this proposal.

[Theseus]

/me slaps himself in the head with a large and particularly smell trout.

Sorry, I'm an idiot.

I vote yes... this is a good solution for now. It also addresses the whole argument about providing an opportunity (albeit limited) for builders to play with nice shiny Army toys... but does not preclude a warmonger strategy to *try* to get as many Armies as allowed.

[Theseus]

BTW, I did get responses from Firaxis, and they are working on the C3C AI Army problem for a patch, date to yet to be determined.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Theseus
Sorry, I'm an idiot.

be careful what you say, otherwise you may be quoted in peoples signatures