AU mod: How to help the AI with research choices

[donZappo]

Alexman, I just ran a couple of tests and are you sure about those values? I created a map with 7 isolated AI civs that had no UUs or starting techs. I ran 10 quick tests and saw them research Bronze Working every single time. The game was set up so that the random seed wasn't preserved and research choices weren't locked in between the tests. I ran this same test previously for flavors analysis and know that it does randomize tech choices, by the way.

The research "costs" for the starting techs in this case are approximately:

Bronze Working -- 164
Masonry ----------- 17
Alphabet ----------- 6
Pottery ------------- 13
Wheel -------------- 155
Warrior Code ----- 141
Ceremonial Burial - 13

Those are the numbers pulled from your spreadsheet for a 40 turn research cost. Changing the research time doesn't change the numbers enough to heavily favor Bronze Working so I know it's not an incorrect research time guess that leads to this.

Now I know that the AI doesn't research the highest valued tech first and there is some random factor involved. In this tests, Bronze Working is nowhere heavily favored enough to make the AI research it 100% of the time. Any ideas where the problem is coming from? I checked the math in the Excel file and everything seems in order in there.

[alexman]

These values seem about right. I know that there is not a linear relationship between these AI values and the chance the AI has to research each tech, but the chances definitely increase with the value.

It's the same with flavors; the higher the flavor relationship, the more likely the civ is to research the tech with that flavor, but I have not been able to find the exact reletionship between flavors, AI values, and probability that the AI researches a tech.

Edit: OK I guess I'm missing something. It seems that when you put all the components into the techs, Bronze Working has a higher value than I would have thought. Perhaps they changed the AI value of something else besides military units in C3C. It looks like it's Wonders and Improvements...

[alexman]

OK it appears I made a mistake in my re-test for C3C. The value for techs that give units has not changed from PTW. It's still 198 for a no-resource defender and 70 for a resource-reqd.

That puts Bronze Working at a value of 210 for a 40 turn tech pace.

[Nor Me]

Re: AU mod: How to help the AI with research choices

Originally posted by alexman
Generic Flavor: Since we can't make techs and buildings more valuable, the thing to do would be to create a 'generic' flavor, which would be assigned to every civ that doesn't have any of the other flavors.

...

High Priority Flavor
Sometimes, the prerequisite property approach is not enough to make the AI emphasize a technology or branch enough. We can use this ‘high priority’ flavor, which will have a higher relationship than 50% to all other flavors, and will be used instead of the ‘generic’ flavor for technologies that we deem necessary for an AI value increase.

Surely you have to give all the civs without other flavors the high-priority flavor rather than the generic one or they won't put a higher priority on high priority techs than generic ones?

[alexman]

You can make a flavor to have a higher relationship with another flavor than with itself. That's what I meant we should do.

Example: (generic:g, high:h, low:l, scientific:s)

Civ with flavor g has relationships to g:50, h:60, l:40, s:50
Civ with flavor s has relationships to g:50, h:60, l:40, s:70

Edit: of course either way would work fine.

[donZappo]

Originally posted by alexman
OK it appears I made a mistake in my re-test for C3C. The value for techs that give units has not changed from PTW. It's still 198 for a no-resource defender and 70 for a resource-reqd.

That puts Bronze Working at a value of 210 for a 40 turn tech pace.

Grrr, you did this just to make me ferret through the excel file and modify the code so that it works, right?

Just kidding on that, by the way! Thanks for tracking down the problem. I'm still not entirely sure exactly how you track down all the numbers since it seems like a combinatory nightmare when you get large values such as 198 or so. Good work, though!

[donZappo]

Alexman... I don't know if this wasn't in the system before, or if you missed it do to your tests, but there appears to be a +1 value to each tech for each other tech that it leads to. For example, if you strip down all of the starting techs, Alphabet will have the highest value since it leads to Writing and Mathematics. This was giving me fits earlier when I was running some tests! Here is some evidence that I have (calculated values of techs using the new condition are added after each test):

All techs stipped down to nothing: Always suggested that I research Alphabet.

Added Precision Bombing, Recycling, or any Worker Job to Ceremonial Burial: Suggested I research Alphabet (don't know if it always does so since I only ran one test for each condition) --- (Alphabet 2, Ceremonial Burial 2)

Added Communication Trading to Ceremonial Burial: Suggested I research Ceremonial Burial --- (Alphabet 2, Ceremonial Burial 3)

Added Worker Job to Alphabet, and Communications Trading to Ceremonial Burial: Suggested I research Alphabet --- (Alphabet 3, Ceremonial Burial 3)

Made Horseback Riding require Ceremonial Burial and added a Worker Job to Ceremonial Burial: Recommended I research Ceremonial Burial --- (Alphabet 2, Ceremonial Burial 3)

Same test, but worker job on Alphabet instead of on Ceremonial Burial: Suggested I research Alphabet --- (Alphabet 3, Ceremonial Burial 2)

Made Iron Working and Horseback Riding linked to Ceremonial Burial (nothing else): Suggested Ceremonial Burial --- (Alphabet 2, Ceremonial Burial 3)

Transferred Iron Working to Alphabet, with Horseback Riding on Ceremonial Burial: Suggested Alphabet --- (Alphabet 3, Ceremonial Burial 2)

Unless some of the other values changed by more than a point, it definitely seems like there is a +1/tech for following techs linked to it. Feel free to test it yourself to see if I'm just hallucinating, but I'm pretty sure about this.

EDIT: Added research values for tests.

[alexman]

Good job discovering this!
Not sure how I missed it, but I'm sure it's not the only thing I missed!

[Stuie]

Moving this here from the Government balance thread:

Something else that would help the AI (in terms of government and research) would be to incorporate Communism and Fascism into other required techs instead of making them their own optional techs. That way the AI won't waste time researching both while I make the Hoover beeline.

For instance: Make Fascism available with Nationalism, and Communism available with Industrialisation. Police Stations/Policemen would also need to be moved, perhaps to Espionage.

As is, the AI wastes the initial Industrial Era research on Nationalism, then Communism and Fascism.

[Nor Me]

Because the AI might switch twice unnecessarily, I'm in favour of making Communism and Fascism require the same tech.

The most conservative change would be to just remove the fascism tech and make the goverment require Communism. I saw a proposal in the other thread anout calling that tech Totalitarianism which I'm unsure about.


I've not tested this but on obvservation of the age of discovery scenario, the AI appears not to trade for techs for which it doesn't have the flavor even when it has one with a intermediate relation to it. They don't show up as available to trade when I talk to them so I assume it's not a valuation problem.

If that were the case, then we could probably get away with making all civs and techs generic as well as any other flavors. and getting the averages to work. Of course, I might be wrong.

[alexman]

There is a new tech property: Non-tradable.
Perhaps that's the reason? I hope so.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
There is a new tech property: Non-tradable.

/me drools.

Maybe we could make use of that in the AU mod?


Dominae

[ducki]

Stuie - the only thing I really don't like about making governments available with non-optional techs is - all governments are optional techs from Monarchy all the way to Fascism.

It's a consistency thing for me.
I'd rather see us devalue those techs/governments for the AI than shuffle them around the tech tree. I think it would be better for the AI decision to be less consistent on this one. I don't think I've ever researched Communism myself(except maybe for AU: The Power of Communism) because I know the AI will research it. Every time.

I suggest we try to flavor the governmental techs or weight the ToE branch so that the AI becomes less "predictable", less prone to research techs he doesn't "need".


Edit: Dominae, the only problem with non-tradeable, IMO, is it then prevents the AI from trading it amongst themselves. So if for example, we were to make Nationalism non-tradeable, the Cavalry Rush is no longer a race against all the AIs, but a race against each individual AI.
I wish there was a "Don't trade with Player" flag in addition to non-tradeable.

Edit 2: That sounds like I'm dismissing the whole idea. I'm not. I'm just saying when considering the non-tradeable flag, let's remember that the AI often NEEDS to trade as much as the player.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by ducki
Stuie - the only thing I really don't like about making governments available with non-optional techs is - all governments are optional techs from Monarchy all the way to Fascism.

Except Feudalism.

[ducki]

Doh, really? I'd have sworn I saw the little optional circle on it last night. My mistake.
Edit: Misread feudal for fasc. Where does Feudalism come in again? Is that right before Chivalry? If so, We should move it to Chiv, but I am probably the only one that thinks so.