AU mod: Longevity

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by ZargonX
I could see adding a happiness modifier to Longevity. I mean, you'd think people would be happier they are living longer It could be a very small increase, but just enough to make it a little more attractive for building.

I see your point, but I also see lots of older people and they are not all that happy. Many are quite cranky.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by vmxa1


I see your point, but I also see lots of older people and they are not all that happy. Many are quite cranky.

especially if they are out in the fields and mines all day.

[nbarclay]

Moving Longevity could possibly add some challenge to close games, but it can also produce a major "the rich get richer" effect when the human player is already ahead. ToE and Hoover are already high-powered wonders readily available to a player with a tech lead. When a player can get Longevity in additon to those two, as is often possible with a good tech lead, the player's advantage is that much greater.

The issue, as I see it, is not, "Is the power of Longevity out of line with that of other industrial wonders?" Rather, it is, "Is the power of longevity more likely to be a counterbalance against a player's running away with the game, or more likely to help the player run away with the game?" Adding wonders with similar power to existing wonders only helps provide balance when the same civ doesn't end up with all of them. And for practical purposes, making Longevity useful instead of essentially useless does amount to adding a wonder to the game.

Nathan

[alexman]

But if you are so far ahead that you can get both the ToE and Longevity, then it's not Longevity that will have won you the game. The game was already won in that case.

[vmxa1]

That is what I was going to say. How often do you get Hoover and not get Longevity? You will have several large metros that can build a wonder faster than the AI. You could get a prebuild and only fear them getting a leader (now sgl).
Most of the time, you do not even bother with prebuilds for it as the AI is likely fighting you and is not going to have any leaders that survive and is not going to out build you for any more wonders.
If it was moved up, it could put more pressure on you to get it.

[Stuie]

I just realized why the AI isn't grabbing Sanitation in my games anymore when I skip it in the tech tree (which I usually do in my rush to grab ToE/Hoover).... playing with the mod, Longevity was there, so the AI would always research Sanitation before I did. Without the mod (and thus no GW), both the AI and I usually skip it until late in the Industrial Age.

I guess this is a long way of saying I support the change proposed by alexman in post number one.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by alexman
But if you are so far ahead that you can get both the ToE and Longevity, then it's not Longevity that will have won you the game. The game was already won in that case.

That's not necessarily true. AIs don't use prebuilds (unless Conquests changed something) and they aren't as good as human players at setting up mega-production centers to build their wonders in. So unless there's a threat of a ToE/Longevity cascade, trading for Sanitation offers a real prospect of winning the race to Longevity. Once it is recognized that an AI has Sanitation, a prebuild can even buy some time before trading for Sanitation. (And of course ToE makes Hoover all but inevitable.)

Obviously, a player would have to be in the tech race to pull that off. But with enough skill and a little luck, I suspect that the odds of pulling off a sweep from a position of rough tech parity are pretty good, at least if a wonder cascade doesn't mess things up.

Nathan

[lockstep]

Originally posted by nbarclay
for practical purposes, making Longevity useful instead of essentially useless does amount to adding a wonder to the game.

Above all, it amounts to offering the human player more strategic choice without creating major imbalances. Doesn't this fit exactly the philosophy of the AU mod?

(And of course ToE makes Hoover all but inevitable.)

IMO, this is a problem that needs to be adressed, but has nothing to do with Longevity's position in the tech tree.

[nbarclay]

It's the "without creating major imbalances" that I question. If the human player can get it without giving up ToE/Hoover, I think it does create a significant balance issue. In my view, the harm to balance in that situation dramatically outweighs any balance advantages when an AI ends up with it or (conceivably) ends up with ToE as a result.

Nathan

[Catt]

I don't have an opinion as to whether the change strengthens or weakens the game -- if pressed, I'd say it might strengthen the human against the AI but also makes the game a bit more fun in the "UP" effect. Though I didn't play the AU Mod regularly, I don't think the move of Longevity to Sanitation ever cost me Longevity to an AI or endangered ToE. So long as one is reasonably close to the leaders (not even requiring parity), the human pre-build ability combined with building more shield-productive cities seems to me to allow building both wonders without too much difficulty. I can envision a game where the tech disparity might be just enough to force a decision to forgo or substantially risk one of the two wonders.

Catt

[enderw]

Change name to Mass Immunization or Smallpox Vaccine?

Well the Subject says it all. It just seems that if the wonder is getting pushed back to sanitation it should be given and era appropriate name, such as Mass Immunization or Smallpox Vaccine.

[MrWhereItsAt]

I am not sure... I have never made it this far in a game without winning before, so I have not seen Longevity's effects firsthand.

Why would we want to change this? Does it really help the AI? I see this wonder much like the Cure of Cancer in Civ2 - so late in the day that it basically does nothing but add a Wonder to the modern era.

Would there be anything wrong with leaving it?

[alexman]

One of the goals of the mod is to strengthen weak elements of the game (and vice versa) so the player has fewer 'no-brainer' decisions.

Stregthening the AI is just another way to reduce the player's 'no-brainers', it's not the only goal of the mod.

[Stuie]

My ToE-->Hoover idea ended up incorporating Longevity....

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=2541335#post2541335

Two birds with one stone, so to speak.

[alexman]

Now that we have a panel, we can start making decisions:

AU mod panel members, you have 24 hours to vote:

• "Yes" to move Longevity to Sanitation.
• "No" to make no change.

If the majority votes "No", we may have a new vote on a different proposal.

My vote: YES!