AU mod: Balancing the Governments

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Krill
Common sense should probably tell me this, but: why not wait until after AU 502 to make recommendations?
You get the extra knowledge gleaned from that game, so why are you so hasty?

Once a person is fully convinced that something is true, there is no need to wait for further evidence. I can understand perfectly if others want to wait before they form opinions, but my own recent experience with Communism leaves me no real doubt that the SPHQ makes it overpowered as civs grow on their way toward domination. (Indeed, it's proabably more powerful for large civs than would be ideal even without the SPHQ.) Alexman's experience and his graphs reinforce my belief even more. Hence, I went ahead and started the ball rolling.

Regarding the question of whether to eliminate the SPHQ entirely or move it to Fascism, I have no strong opinion at the moment. Just so long as it disappears from Communism.

Nathan

[alexman]

It appears that we have somewhat hurt the AI in our effort to balance the governments. So I just did some tests and discovered some interesting things about AI government choices.

• The AI always picks the same government in a given situation. There is no RNG involved in the government decision. On the other hand, the decision to have a revolution does have a random element.
• Corruption levels are a big factor in the AI's value of each government, even if the corruption levels do not result in a big difference in income and production. The AI thinks communal corruption and problematic corruption are equally good.
• The AI actually takes into account unit support costs in its government decisions. Note that at higher levels the AI gets more free unit support, so government decisions may be different than at lower difficulty levels.
• Other factors that influence the AI's decision are trade bonus, tile penalty (Despotism), and building maintenance. Building maintenance appears to have a different effect on communal corruption. It seems that civ with small building maintenance is more likely to choose Communism.
• The shunned and preferred governments actually make a difference in the AI's government choice!
• The AI does not appear to make government decisions based on empire size.

I believe we can use these facts to manipulate the AI into making better government decisions. But first some experimental results.

For a 9-city empire (4 cities, 5 towns) with a map OCN of 6, here is the order of preference for AI government choices (at peace). Shown in brackets are the unit support costs.

Stock Rules

• 0 units/city: Demo(0), Rep(0), Fasc(0), Comm(0), Mon(0), Feud(0), Desp(0)
• 1 unit/city: Demo(9), Rep(0), Fasc(0), Comm(0), Mon(0), Feud(0), Desp(0)
• 2 units/city: Demo(18), Rep(2), Fasc(0), Comm(0), Mon(0), Feud(0), Desp(0)
• 3 units/city: Demo(27), Rep(20), Fasc(0), Comm(0), Feud(0), Mon(1), Desp(0)
• 4 units/city: Demo(36), Rep(38), Fasc(0), Comm(0), Feud(9), Mon(10), Desp(0)
• 5 units/city: Demo(45), Rep(56), Fasc(0), Comm(0), Mon(19), Feud(36), Desp(9)
• 10 units/city: Demo(90), Fasc(42), Comm(36), Mon(64), Rep(146), Desp(54), Feud(171)

AU mod 1.04 Rules

• 0 units/city: Demo(0), Rep(0), Fasc(0), Feud(0), Comm(0), Mon(0), Desp(0)
• 1 units/city: Demo(0), Rep(0), Fasc(0), Feud(0), Comm(0), Mon(0), Desp(0)
• 2 units/city: Demo(2), Fasc(0), Rep(4), Feud(0), Comm(0), Mon(0), Desp(0)
• 3 units/city: Demo(11), Fasc(0), Feud(0), Rep(22), Comm(0), Mon(1), Desp(0)
• 4 units/city: Demo(20), Fasc(0), Feud(3), Rep(40), Comm(0), Mon(10), Desp(0)
• 5 units/city: Demo(29), Fasc(0), Feud(12), Rep(58), Comm(0), Mon(19), Desp(9)
• 10 units/city: Demo(74), Fasc(42), Feud(57), Comm(36), Mon(64), Rep(148), Desp(54)

You can see that the AI in AU mod 1.04 probably chooses Feudalism over Republic a bit too often, and Fascism over Communism even more often than stock. This is not very good for a mod that strives to improve the AI.

I would like to propose the following changes to the governments to correct the situation:

1) Restore Feudalism unit support cost to 3gpt, like it is in stock. This will help the AI choose this government over the Republic less often. It should not make much of a difference in terms of strategy for humans because the free unit support limit is hard to reach.

2) Increase the corruption level of Fascism to problematic. The change to minimal corruption in 1.04 made Fascism far too valuable in the eyes of the AI. Instead, I propose to remove the 'forced resettlement' from Fascism (which the AI does not take into consideration at all), and move the SPHQ from Communism to Fascism, as has been suggested before in this thread by others.

3) Set the Republic as the favorite government for all AI civilizations, and Fascism as the shunned government for all. This helps the AI choose Communism over Fascism (which otherwise would be the same in the eyes of the AI), and the Republic over Feudalism.

Here are the results of the above experiment for these proposed changes:

Proposed Changes:

• 0 units/city: Demo(0), Rep(0), Feud(0), Comm(0), Mon(0), Fasc(0), Desp(0)
• 1 units/city: Demo(0), Rep(0), Feud(0), Comm(0), Mon(0), Fasc(0), Desp(0)
• 2 units/city: Demo(2), Rep(4), Feud(0), Comm(0), Fasc(0), Mon(0), Desp(0)
• 3 units/city: Demo(11), Rep(22), Feud(0), Comm(0), Mon(1), Fasc(0), Desp(0)
• 4 units/city: Demo(20), Feud(9), Rep(40), Comm(0), Fasc(0), Mon(10), Desp(0)
• 5 units/city: Demo(29), Rep(58), Feud(36), Comm(0), Fasc(0), Mon(19), Desp(9)
• 10 units/city: Demo(74), Comm(36), Fasc(42), Mon(64), Rep(148), Feud(171), Desp(54)

[Aqualung71]

Your analysis concentrates on peacetime, correct? Is it a given that during wartime the AI will automatically switch into Fascism (or possibly Communism under your proposals), or can it depend somewhat on other factors? For example, if in Republic and another civ declares war, WW may not be a problem for some time so it may be better to stay in Republic.....particularly if the AI has a wonder build going on.....stuff like that.

It a concern that there is a random element in the revolution decision There should be nothing random about timing a government change!

[alexman]

I did not investigate war time government selections, so I can't say for sure, but there is probably a factor related to the level of the luxury slider induced by war weariness.

As soon as the luxury slider element outweighs the other factors, a new government becomes the best in the eyes of the AI, which enables the chance of a revolution.

As for the random element in the revolution decision, my guess is that it was done that way to avoid constant revolutions if the best government changes back and forth. In any event, it looks like the chance of a revolution depends on how much better the AI thinks is the new government.

[alexman]

Here's another idea to make Fascism more attractive:

Give the Fascism-SPHQ the ability to spawn an Army every few turns.

This will make Fascism worth considering for the human, and it will give the AI some much-needed Armies when at war.

Edit: it's even somewhat realistic, given the militaristic nature of most fascist governments.

[MqsTout]

Fascism-SPHQ yields armies. I like it.

[ducki]

Intriguing, but I'd like a clearer idea of what you mean by "every few turns" - to me, few means 3-5, which is far too often, and I doubt you intended that.

If I have a Military Academy in a "good" city, I can knock out armies in about 6 or so turns, but this is usually in my capitol, after railroads, with a really good balance between food and shields.

Given that, I'd shoot for every 8-10 turns, although even that might be too often.

It needs testing, and it might be a bit too radical in conjunction with the "Military Academ does NOT require Victorious Army" proposal.

In fact, I'm inclined to support an Army-generating Fascism SPHQ instead of removing the Victorious Army from the Military academy if the AI is still highly likely to choose Fascism for wartime.

Would the Army-generation stop once the (now-at-peace) AI switches to a peacetime government?

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
In fact, I'm inclined to support an Army-generating Fascism SPHQ instead of removing the Victorious Army from the Military academy if the AI is still highly likely to choose Fascism for wartime.

IMO, there are many valid arguments for a Military Academy that doesn't require a victorious army. Whatever we do to give Fascism a boost should not interfere with the MilAc discussion.

[ducki]

Whatever we do to give Fascism a boost should not interfere with the MilAc discussion.

I disagree, but only if we give fascism the army-generating sphq.

One of the main thrusts behind the non-victorious army Academy is to get the AI to build armies. I've long since given up suggesting that the human deserves to build armies without an army, as there is not nearly enough "builder-support" for that argument.

So, if the goal of the freely-buildable MAcad is to get the AI to build Armies, and a Fascist SPHQ that generates Armies, as well as a continued tendency towards Fascism for war will solve the problem of no AI Armies, the rule of "change as little as possible, but just enough" would suggest that we don't necessarily need to do both.

I feel that a fascist SPHQ that generates armies(therefore eventually enabling the building of the MilAcad by extension) should be mutually exclusive (in terms of implementation in the mod) with a freely buildable MilAcad.

That's just my opinion.

[Madine]

If all AI's shunned Facism, would they choose it at all?

[Ision]

While on the subject of the totalitarian states; will the SPHQ simply be transferred to Fascism - or will you consider having it in Espionage?

I believe that both SPHQ and police stations should be moved to Espionage in order to give that tech a greater importance and value to the human, and perhaps create yet another alternative to the - beeline to 'ToE' or beeline to 'Tanks' options.

Ision

[Aqualung71]

I agree with ducki. Either/or, but not both. SPHQ-spawned Armies makes the MA unnecessary for the AI, except for the power bonus. I have yet to see any tendency for the AI to choose Communism over Fascism for a wartime government, so I think this may work well.

In fact, it's a simpler solution, since removing the victorious Army requirement from MA won't necessarily result in more AI Armies.

AI Fascist governments + bonus armies =

[alexman]

The following proposal is now under consideration:

1. Restore Feudalism unit support cost to 3gpt, like it is in stock.
2. Increase the corruption level of Fascism to problematic.
3. Remove 'forced resettlement' penalty from Fascism
4. Move the SPHQ from Communism to Fascism.
5. Set the Republic as the favorite government for all AI civilizations, and Fascism as the shunned government for all.

Voting in a week, for the whole proposal as stated above (not for individual items).

Let's leave the Army-spawning ability ability of the SPHQ for after we have decided on the requirements for Military Tradition.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Ision
I believe that both SPHQ and police stations should be moved to Espionage in order to give that tech a greater importance and value to the human, and perhaps create yet another alternative to the - beeline to 'ToE' or beeline to 'Tanks' options.

I believe the SPHQ is already in Espionage.

As for police stations, I don't think the benefits from moving them are worth the change from stock. It's a relatively big change that won't be enough to motivate players to research Espionage more often than they research Communism at the moment, especially if we nerf Communism by removing the SPHQ. Others may disagree, of course.

[Aqualung71]

Any feel for the extent to which increasing the corruption level of Fascism to "problematic" will merely offset moving the SPHQ to Fascism?